Vitamin B12 (and yoga masters among others)

[mogenblue]

I have my information about B12 mostly from dutch sources, so it's no use linking here to them.

On a dutch vegan forum everybody mostly agrees vegans should supplement, but there is also one woman who has been vegan all her life and never supplemented B12. And she is doing fine. How come? Nobody knows. My personal guess is that her intestines found a way when she was young to get around it. That's how I personally explain it.
Other then that, vegans should always supplement B12. Vegetarians may get it from the animal sources they still use: milk, cheese, eggs.

B12 exists by nature in soil and surface water. In earlier days hygiene was less rigorous then today so many people got some soil with their food either way. This way they got B12 in a natural way.
I think yogi masters maybe use natural food and don't clean it too rigorous either and therefore get B12 from soil. Maybe that's an explanation.

B12 can be absorbed in two ways in your intestines: active and passive.
The active absorption requires that B12 is binded to the intrinsic factor. This goes my carefully chewing your food so it gets mixed with saliva and in the stomach. Receptors in your colon are then able to pick up the B12. But those receptors are quickly saturated so natural B12 intake should be spread out over more times a day.
The passive absorption occors along the whole length of the colon. A small percentage of the b12 penetrates through the wand into the blood stream. The higher you supplement, the less will be absorbed.

I believe live stock is also supplemented with b12 because they don't come out in the fields enough anymore.

[Debrah]

As I said to someone else, I'm getting close to finishing off a personal investigation of B12 and all that is involved with that and our health. Actually very interesting bit of research.

From what I have read (Mayo Clinic, PubMed, American Nutrition Association, et.), anyone who is not eating either meat products or supplementing is going to find themselves dealing with a B12 deficiency at some point. Never having eaten meat, that person would find themselves dealing with that deficiency within the first few years of life. That's just the way it is. So I would ask for verification of anything that the lady you mentioned, says. It's just not physiologically possible to go an entire life without ingesting it in some form.

And if she was a meat eater and healthy and then quit eating all animal products, she only has about a 20 year supply at the start and each day will have been drawing down on that supply, which means that at some point, she'll hit the 'deficient state' and from everything that I've read, will find herself in trouble. And by the time the pernicious anemia is evident, it's too late and repair of the damage to her brain is irreversible. Dementia like symptoms are an outcome of failure to source B12 from somewhere.

The bacteria laden soil and dirty hands would be a possibility I suppose for obtaining some level of B12 although you couldn't count on that these days because most of us are far removed from that lifestyle.

As for your intestines absorbing it, only in the upper part of the colon, the ileum which is the portion after the stomach but before the large intestine. The area of the colon where the bacteria actually colonize and grow is the last, large colon and nothing gets absorbed from that for obvious reasons (feces loaded with toxins) so you can't grow your own B12 and absorb it.

Regarding what you said about animals, I found a link that says the following: '...But, cattle no longer feed on grass and chickens do not peck in the dirt on factory farms. Even if they did, pesticides often kill B12 producing bacteria and insects in soil. Heavy antibiotic use kills B12 producing bacteria in the guts of farm animals. In order to maintain meat a source of B12 the meat industry now adds it to animal feed, 90% of B12 supplements produced in the world are fed to livestock. Even if you only eat grass-fed organic meat you may not be able to absorb the B12 attached to animal protein. It may be more efficient to just skip the animals and get B12 directly from supplements.....' so you're absolutely right on that score.

[mogenblue]

Yes, I know it's a very funny story. The only verification you can get from her is that she is still alive and doing fine. She doesn't have to justify herself to anyone but she does have the right to speak up for herself. She and her brothers and sisters have been a life time vegan and do well anyway. She is well over 70 now. Her kids moved out years ago. They are vegans too. I don't know how they go about with B12. I talked with her in another thread about baking your own bread. She is a very pleasent woman to talk with. Great fun.

I don't recommend repeating that, skipping B12 supplements. Jack Norris says in his lessons from history that

A very small number of individuals with no obvious reliable source appear to avoid clinical deficiency symptoms for twenty years or more.

So I suppose she and her family belongs to that small number of individuals.

It may be more efficient to just skip the animals and get B12 directly from supplements.....

Basically animal food has outlived itself if you look at it that way. And there are health reasons enough to skip animal food all in all. And ethical reasons. And environmental reasons. And so on, and so on.

Personally I do supplement B12. I used to hate taking pills. I find you should get enough of everything you need from a healthy diet. So that was another thing that stopped me from going vegan sooner then I did. But when I started to make my own milk I was forced to start supplementing because then I didn't use fortified soymilk anymore. That's how supplementing started for me.
I am glad I did. Because I also started using calcium supplements and my body reacted very well to that. So I suppose I had a shortage of calcium intake on my dairy intake for years. My joints had become kind of stiff. With calcium supplements the flexibility in my arms and other joints returned.

[CarolineD]

Thank for the information guys, very helpful.

[Debrah]

Originally Posted by mogenblue

..............

Personally I do supplement B12. I used to hate taking pills. I find you should get enough of everything you need from a healthy diet. So that was another thing that stopped me from going vegan sooner then I did. But when I started to make my own milk I was forced to start supplementing because then I didn't use fortified soymilk anymore. That's how supplementing started for me.
I am glad I did. Because I also started using calcium supplements and my body reacted very well to that. So I suppose I had a shortage of calcium intake on my dairy intake for years. My joints had become kind of stiff. With calcium supplements the flexibility in my arms and other joints returned.

I was surprised to see on one of the pages that I was reading, that calcium is very important for the absorption of B12. And since problems with muscles and movement are symptomatic of B12 deficiency, maybe you were experiencing a little calcium/B12 deficiency. I'm glad to hear that you are feeling better.

[knightofalbion]

The most recent study (in Canada) which was a general population study showed that 40% had either low, near deficient or actual deficient (9%) levels of B-12. [Only about 1% of the general population are vegans]

I know of three people who got pernicious anaemia. One was vegan (poor diet/no supplements) the other two were hardcore meat-eaters. One a nose-to-tail fan. So ...

I think it is wise to take a supplement. So little of our food these days is truly 'natural' in the sense it has come straight from the soil or tree.

The supplement thing is often used as a barb. But remember this, two-thirds of Americans take a vitamin supplement every day. Many foods, including bread, are 'fortified' with supplements.
Farm animals , including free range, are routinely fed supplemented animal feed (Nearly all GM these days)

[Debrah]

Originally Posted by knightofalbion

The most recent study (in Canada) which was a general population study showed that 40% had either low, near deficient or actual deficient (9%) levels of B-12. [Only about 1% of the general population are vegans]

I know of three people who got pernicious anaemia. One was vegan (poor diet/no supplements) the other two were hardcore meat-eaters. One a nose-to-tail fan. So ...

I think it is wise to take a supplement. So little of our food these days is truly 'natural' in the sense it has come straight from the soil or tree.

The supplement thing is often used as a barb. But remember this, two-thirds of Americans take a vitamin supplement every day. Many foods, including bread, are 'fortified' with supplements.
Farm animals , including free range, are routinely fed supplemented animal feed (Nearly all GM these days)

Interesting observation KnightofAlbion. I came across the following when I was looking at the issue of B12. It was from a PubMed page:

A review of eighteen studies shows the following breakdown of who is at risk for B12 deficiencies in the general population:

pregnant women 62%
children 25-86%
Adolescents 21-41%
Seniors 11-90%
Vegetarians/vegans 68-83%

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23356638

Going down to the end of the list, the veg'n numbers shocked me and simply points to the fact that us veg'n need to get the word out that going without B12 is asking for trouble.

And here's another thing that's important to know. Most doctors will refer you for a serum test to check your B12 levels. But apparently those only measure how much B12 (including the unusable 'inactive' variety) that is circulating in your blood. It doesn't tell you how much you are absorbing of the 'active' version of B12. For that, more sensitive tests called the homocysteine and the MMA tests are required. Those will tell you how well you are breaking down proteins (if you eat meat) and if you are absorbing it.

I went to my doctor, he did a serum test and then told me to quit supplementing. He didn't know I'm a vegan by the way. For a while I quit, but since I did my research, I've restarted because now I understand that he wasn't testing the best way and so didn't have an accurate understanding of my levels and status.

[missmetal]

Originally Posted by PassionOfHybrid

For those who started out on a meat diet, but changed to a plant based diet later on, still may contain B12 within there body.

Hi there!,
Just wanting to put my 2 cents in...
I was originally a meat eater for I would say 26 years of my life.... Although, as soon as I started eating vegetarian food, my B12 was so low, I needed weekly injections.

Now, I am not sure of this entirely, but I have heard that having T2 Diabetes can also affect B12 levels (or taking metformin for T2 Diabetes can lower B12 levels)... So perhaps vegetarianism + having T2 Diabetes can potentially lower the levels to extreme.

I can't speak for anyone that has tried this and doesn't have diabetes, but it definitely lowered mine as soon as I swapped to plant based meals.

At this stage, I was constatnly getting blood tests done whilst eating meat with T2, and B12 levels were fine. But swapping over lowered it a lot within a matter of weeks.

Defo didn't have any B12 from meat left in my body....long story short.

[missmetal]

Originally Posted by Debrah

Another thing to remember too is that there are a variety of other reasons that you might need to supplement your B12. Various medicines as well as disease processes can inhibit or prevent absorption and that would accelerate your progress towards a B12 deficiency. Also the very natural process of aging can lead to a deficiency regardless of your diet.

In this regard, even meat eaters need to be concerned about their own B12 status.

Some of the diseases that can take a patient into a B12 deficient status are:

crohn’s, pancreatic disease, weight loss surgery, fibromyalgia, celiac disease, lack of intrinsic factor,alcoholism, those infected with h. pylori which causes ulcers, HIV, diabetes, people with eating disorders, people with gastrointestinal cancers, acid reflux.

If you have one of these diseases or are on any kind of antacid medications, you should check with your doctor and express your concern about your personal status in this regard.

Exactly this, I recently found out that having T2 Diabetes / taking the medication ultimately gets rid of my B12 levels. I just left a comment above explaining a little more in detail, but yes it definitely counts towards a deficiency.

[Debrah]

Originally Posted by missmetal

Exactly this, I recently found out that having T2 Diabetes / taking the medication ultimately gets rid of my B12 levels. I just left a comment above explaining a little more in detail, but yes it definitely counts towards a deficiency.

How good that you found out! Was it your doctor who told you and did he/she suggest supplementing more or what? Just curious how doctors cover that because they have such poor nutrition education when they're students.