Robert Adams

Originally Posted by God-Like

Hey G.S. Me old cherub ;)

I think going against the grain of teachings that are held dear to other’s can be futile on one hand but on the other there needs to be a balance attained . .

Daz, behave yourself

Are you going against their teachings though? On the surface you are but there are very human underpinnings to Spirituality that most people don't want to know about because..... As far as the mind is concerned, the teachings people hold dear represent wealth and status as much as money does and people have invested so much in the building of their ivory towers that they're going to protect them against all odds. It's also called cognitive dissonance and it's a disorder.

It's been said that religion is for those that are afraid of going to hell and that Spirituality is for those that have been there, and often this provides the context for understanding. The reasons we are Spiritual or religious provides the framework our beliefs are built on regardless of whether or not we want to explore them, and the reasons we don't take a holistic approach to Spirituality is the most telling of all. It's when "All That Is" isn't any more, it's "All That Is" labelled as Spirituality.

But what does a non-person or a non-doer, is that just dissociation in disguise? That's really all non-identification really is, it's a cognitive dysfunction not Spirituality. Don't Spiritual people like themselves any more?

I identify with my personality. I have one. I enjoy sitting watching a sunset because it gives my personality peace and quiet. I have a bag of marbles in my pocket when I go out of the house. I enjoy playing in puddles with the kids and seeing shapes in the clouds. I have a laugh with people. If this makes me less-than-Spiritual I don't care but my Spirit is free and I don't have to expend resources to maintain an external facade.

If there is such a thing as Life's Purpose/Karmic Obligations then didn't their True Self make the choice to come here?

There are just as many Spiritual folks who claim to be beyond desire yet desire the world around them to perceive them as gurus.

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by iamthat

Ah, daz, you really haven't grasped it.

Peace

Okay iamthat lets get back to basics here shall we ..

Please enlighten me as to how you have understood the term / word and meaning of what identification is .

I say this because beyond the mind there is no thought of I AM, or the world of what is true or real or what identification refers too .

So let’s get right back to basics here and tell me how you know of the real or true identification beyond mind .

Can you do that?

Can you tell me how a concept of the mind that relates to identification can be made sense of and concluded beyond the concept of it lol .

Then we can discuss who has grasped it and who hasn’t .


x daz x

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Daz, behave yourself

Are you going against their teachings though? On the surface you are but there are very human underpinnings to Spirituality that most people don't want to know about because..... As far as the mind is concerned, the teachings people hold dear represent wealth and status as much as money does and people have invested so much in the building of their ivory towers that they're going to protect them against all odds. It's also called cognitive dissonance and it's a disorder.

It's been said that religion is for those that are afraid of going to hell and that Spirituality is for those that have been there, and often this provides the context for understanding. The reasons we are Spiritual or religious provides the framework our beliefs are built on regardless of whether or not we want to explore them, and the reasons we don't take a holistic approach to Spirituality is the most telling of all. It's when "All That Is" isn't any more, it's "All That Is" labelled as Spirituality.

But what does a non-person or a non-doer, is that just dissociation in disguise? That's really all non-identification really is, it's a cognitive dysfunction not Spirituality. Don't Spiritual people like themselves any more?

I identify with my personality. I have one. I enjoy sitting watching a sunset because it gives my personality peace and quiet. I have a bag of marbles in my pocket when I go out of the house. I enjoy playing in puddles with the kids and seeing shapes in the clouds. I have a laugh with people. If this makes me less-than-Spiritual I don't care but my Spirit is free and I don't have to expend resources to maintain an external facade.

If there is such a thing as Life's Purpose/Karmic Obligations then didn't their True Self make the choice to come here?

There are just as many Spiritual folks who claim to be beyond desire yet desire the world around them to perceive them as gurus.

There is no one here to behave or misbehave apparently

There certainly is a distance put in front of or in-between what they are and what they appear to be . The irony of non duality and oneness and Isness and Godness is that there is no separation, there is only Self .

It is the individual awareness of self that puts a distance and a separation in front of and in-between what they are and the silly thing is that they are actually going against the grain of the realisation and the meaning behind it all .

These are the same errors manifesting as in my last conversation about the appearance of the elephant where peeps want to put distance between what they are and what they are appearing to be as an elephant .

Well what they are is an elephant appearing as an elephant, experiencing life as that . There is only what you are so there can only be that experiencing that as all things .

The funny thing about the non doer or the non person is that there is awareness of self doing and being a person lol .

There is no comparison had or experience had that there is anything other than what you are doing and being within experience .

All these floating teachings come about from the realisation that there is what you are beyond the mind-body-world .

So what? That doesn’t mean that what you are that is of this mind-body-world is not real or whatever is identified along side with that is false .

There is no realisation to that effect .

I am eagerly awaiting some answers from those that disagree with this .



x daz x

[A human Being]

Originally Posted by God-Like

Okay iamthat lets get back to basics here shall we ..

Please enlighten me as to how you have understood the term / word and meaning of what identification is .

I say this because beyond the mind there is no thought of I AM, or the world of what is true or real or what identification refers too .

So let’s get right back to basics here and tell me how you know of the real or true identification beyond mind .

Can you do that?

Can you tell me how a concept of the mind that relates to identification can be made sense of and concluded beyond the concept of it lol .

Then we can discuss who has grasped it and who hasn’t .


x daz x

Just on this one point - does there have to be the thought of 'I am' in order to know that you exist?

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by A human Being

Just on this one point - does there have to be the thought of 'I am' in order to know that you exist?

Well what you have done is put aside I AM and introduced a you to know .

Peeps at times talk about what they are as being existence itself just as there is simply ‘being’ itself but of course these are just mindful terms .

One needs to understand that beyond the mind is beyond the understanding of mindful concepts . This is why I have emphasised the point about beyond the mind is beyond any concepts of identifying what is true and false . All these understanding reflect I AM of the dual mind experience and not beyond ness .

So your question derives through the same dual mind reality of experience .

I would say there is what you are that is both of the mind and beyond and from a mindful perspective of what existence means one would therefore with this understanding say that what you are exists beyond mind but it would not be I AM aware of existing .

So there doesn’t in this respect need the I AM awareness to exist as what you are but there would be no one to know that they exist .

To know that you do exist there requires the thought of I AM .


x daz x

[Jyotir]

Spirit is consciousness…all consciousness, and therefore all power.

As such no limitation is really possible to THAT.

If limitation is experienced, it is conditional to the perception of a separate self, and other separate selves, etc. which is why this is deemed “illusory” - because it isn’t the whole e.g., unconditional story of a self-existent all-conscious infinite power - just a limited distortion of condition, because reality is then experienced in and through that very condition (illusion) of the material sense/divided ego-cognition 'personality' within the temporal becoming of the physical plane.

Meanwhile, Spirit is omni-potent because it is omni-conscious and may therefore form Itself, but also know Itself in any status so formed (including the Cosmic physical) whether individuated within a multiplicity, as the entire multiplicity (Cosmic), or as what transcends and subsumes ALL of it as that same Self.

Realized masters have said that they may see/experience themselves fluidly as an individual or as the totality (cosmic) or even the transcendent per the Will/Vision of Spirit they have fully identified with, that they are. After all, Spirit is in fact all of it as all-conscious, so, how could that be limited by that very same consciousness?

A: if the instrumental consciousness is inherently restricted as a condition imposed by (an all-powerful) Spirit as in the case of unrealized differentiated beings who see themselves as this conditional ego-illusion.

In actuality Spirit may according to its Will see itself as that Self in any status, whether Transcendent or Cosmic, or as a component individuation within the Cosmic multiplicity ….all Spirit in various statuses. To spirit there is no illusion except as it has plunged ‘a portion’ of Itself into a deliberate self-oblivion (conditional ignorance/illusion) for the purpose of allowing individuated portions of self (jivatma) to realize Self (as in the case of a realized master).

It is only in some branches of Advaita that this notion arises of a totally illusory individuated self (drop) because of the (ultimately incorrect) premise that only the totality (ocean) is Real. But this is a limitation within/pertaining to said branches of Advaita. Drop, ocean, wave = all God/Self. God knows Self as Self whether all or any such, but typically drops don't know themselves as ocean, hence the illusion (an artificial distinction).

Because if Spirit is ALL, how can a portion of Spirit which is all-conscious be unconscious to Itself or not Be Itself whether in Being, or becoming - it is the Self-same Spirit and essentially equal, even if conditionally instrumentally limited in knowing Itself.

It is the transcending of that conditional illusion that is our opportunity, thus knowing ourselves as Spirit unconditionally in any status, and significantly by not escaping the Cosmic physical, to be able to persist in it as realized thus gradually divinizing the physical.


~J

[Miss Hepburn]

Thank you, ~J. Every word.

[Unseeking Seeker]

Originally Posted by jyotir

It is the transcending of that conditional illusion that is our opportunity, thus knowing ourselves as Spirit unconditionally in any status, and significantly by not escaping the Cosmic physical, to be able to persist in it as realized thus gradually divinizing the physical.

Well expressed.

[Tara5]

Originally Posted by Jyotir

Spirit is consciousness…all consciousness, and therefore all power.

As such no limitation is really possible to THAT.

If limitation is experienced, it is conditional to the perception of a separate self, and other separate selves, etc. which is why this is deemed “illusory” - because it isn’t the whole e.g., unconditional story of a self-existent all-conscious infinite power - just a limited distortion of condition, because reality is then experienced in and through that very condition (illusion) of the material sense/divided ego-cognition 'personality' within the temporal becoming of the physical plane.

Meanwhile, Spirit is omni-potent because it is omni-conscious and may therefore form Itself, but also know Itself in any status so formed (including the Cosmic physical) whether individuated within a multiplicity, as the entire multiplicity (Cosmic), or as what transcends and subsumes ALL of it as that same Self.

Realized masters have said that they may see/experience themselves fluidly as an individual or as the totality (cosmic) or even the transcendent per the Will/Vision of Spirit they have fully identified with, that they are. After all, Spirit is in fact all of it as all-conscious, so, how could that be limited by that very same consciousness?

A: if the instrumental consciousness is inherently restricted as a condition imposed by (an all-powerful) Spirit as in the case of unrealized differentiated beings who see themselves as this conditional ego-illusion.

In actuality Spirit may according to its Will see itself as that Self in any status, whether Transcendent or Cosmic, or as a component individuation within the Cosmic multiplicity ….all Spirit in various statuses. To spirit there is no illusion except as it has plunged ‘a portion’ of Itself into a deliberate self-oblivion (conditional ignorance/illusion) for the purpose of allowing individuated portions of self (jivatma) to realize Self (as in the case of a realized master).

It is only in some branches of Advaita that this notion arises of a totally illusory individuated self (drop) because of the (ultimately incorrect) premise that only the totality (ocean) is Real. But this is a limitation within/pertaining to said branches of Advaita. Drop, ocean, wave = all God/Self. God knows Self as Self whether all or any such, but typically drops don't know themselves as ocean, hence the illusion (an artificial distinction).

Because if Spirit is ALL, how can a portion of Spirit which is all-conscious be unconscious to Itself or not Be Itself whether in Being, or becoming - it is the Self-same Spirit and essentially equal, even if conditionally instrumentally limited in knowing Itself.

It is the transcending of that conditional illusion that is our opportunity, thus knowing ourselves as Spirit unconditionally in any status, and significantly by not escaping the Cosmic physical, to be able to persist in it as realized thus gradually divinizing the physical.


~J

You said it, J !

.

Originally Posted by God-Like

There is no one here to behave or misbehave apparently

There certainly is a distance put in front of or in-between what they are and what they appear to be . The irony of non duality and oneness and Isness and Godness is that there is no separation, there is only Self .

It is the individual awareness of self that puts a distance and a separation in front of and in-between what they are and the silly thing is that they are actually going against the grain of the realisation and the meaning behind it all .

These are the same errors manifesting as in my last conversation about the appearance of the elephant where peeps want to put distance between what they are and what they are appearing to be as an elephant .

Well what they are is an elephant appearing as an elephant, experiencing life as that . There is only what you are so there can only be that experiencing that as all things .

The funny thing about the non doer or the non person is that there is awareness of self doing and being a person lol .

There is no comparison had or experience had that there is anything other than what you are doing and being within experience .

All these floating teachings come about from the realisation that there is what you are beyond the mind-body-world .

So what? That doesn’t mean that what you are that is of this mind-body-world is not real or whatever is identified along side with that is false .

There is no realisation to that effect .

I am eagerly awaiting some answers from those that disagree with this .

x daz x

Nah Daz, and nobody here with enough of a self to use a keyboard it seems.

The irony is that people aren't listening to themselves and they can't seem to make their minds up if there is a self to take umbrage and offence when others disagree with them - which are both choices by the way. Maybe people can't distinguish which Self/self is at play at any given time.

I think that's what's going on Daz, people aren't seeing the meaning behind it. The Universe is the way it is for its own reasons so if we think think it should be some other way, what does that mean? The personality exists and as far as the human aspects are concerned it's fundamental - it's how we experience this reality. Our experience of this reality isn't 'governed' by the ideologies and theologies it's 'governed' by our response to the interaction between our inner and outer worlds. Spirituality is a response to that interaction the same as sulking is.

Personally I think the wrong questions are being asked. If people are trying so hard to not identify with their self, what does that mean? And not just from a psychological perspective but also how that affects their Spirituality. Often it reflects other issues that the subconscious is trying to express in its own way.

We are supposed to be multi-dimensional beings but where does that sit with one-dimensional thinking? We aren't beyond the mind/body world because we're (and they) are sitting in a forum. If we were beyond the mind/body we'd be dead.

Good luck with those answers.