A Little About Science and Spirituality

[Busby]

You may well remember the moment when, as a child, you put the question 'Why am I here?' and mum or dad gave some sort of nonsense answer because of course the solution to such a question lies in realms of which we have no idea. Any possible answer lies somewhere else, unknown. Or you, as a mum or dad were completely unable to even think of a possible reply. So it has always amazed me how quickly we adapt to life. Some of us are so quickly or easily adapted that we don't mind putting our life at risk - for hobbies, dangerous activities, wars and so on. It's almost as if we know that it doesn't matter soooo much. Maybe deep down we know things that we could not yet comprehend. We cannot imagine being in a non-conscious condition. It could possibly be that some of us even know it.

Personally I have difficulty with the idea that we are here to learn, improve ourselves, grow, or even have to believe in something. In my opinion (and this has taken decades to be at true for me at least) we exist in this world as we are. That is we exist as mind and matter. There is no need for anything else. These 'spiritual beings' who sort of guide us, create us and cause us to come into existence (as results of cosmic actions) are, or would be, recognisable (perhaps) as swathes or coils of energy, the sort of clouds of light and energy we see when we look out far into the universe.

This picture easily represents the energy forms given names in the Hindu tradition. Each of them having a goal, each goal set by the natural tendency of atoms wanting to take their place in the scheme of things. In Greek philosophy atoms were understood to be in the form of grains, each of them jostling for a place just as a bird or a fish jostles in the swarm or shoal.

Quantum philosophy seems to show that atoms are aware of themselves and it follows that the whole of creation has some sort of awareness, no matter how stumpf (as we understand it) it may seem to be.

For me this is all in the mind. I don't mean that it is all an illusion, but something - the slowing down of time, the slowing of light, the curvature of space creates reality within a great and universal mind in which we humans have reached a point where we too are slowly becoming aware of our place in the newly discovered and utterly mind-blowing suggestion that there are at least two trillion galaxies in the known universe.

The reason we are here is that this universal intelligence which or who isn't interested in whether you eat pork or are circumcised has only one target, one without end - to experience in one way or another everything that can possibly be experienced.

Fantastic.

Originally Posted by Busby

You may well remember the moment when, as a child, you put the question 'Why am I here?' and mum or dad gave some sort of nonsense answer because of course the solution to such a question lies in realms of which we have no idea. Any possible answer lies somewhere else, unknown. Or you, as a mum or dad were completely unable to even think of a possible reply. So it has always amazed me how quickly we adapt to life. Some of us are so quickly or easily adapted that we don't mind putting our life at risk - for hobbies, dangerous activities, wars and so on. It's almost as if we know that it doesn't matter soooo much. Maybe deep down we know things that we could not yet comprehend. We cannot imagine being in a non-conscious condition. It could possibly be that some of us even know it.

Personally I have difficulty with the idea that we are here to learn, improve ourselves, grow, or even have to believe in something. In my opinion (and this has taken decades to be at true for me at least) we exist in this world as we are. That is we exist as mind and matter. There is no need for anything else. These 'spiritual beings' who sort of guide us, create us and cause us to come into existence (as results of cosmic actions) are, or would be, recognisable (perhaps) as swathes or coils of energy, the sort of clouds of light and energy we see when we look out far into the universe.

This picture easily represents the energy forms given names in the Hindu tradition. Each of them having a goal, each goal set by the natural tendency of atoms wanting to take their place in the scheme of things. In Greek philosophy atoms were understood to be in the form of grains, each of them jostling for a place just as a bird or a fish jostles in the swarm or shoal.

Quantum philosophy seems to show that atoms are aware of themselves and it follows that the whole of creation has some sort of awareness, no matter how stumpf (as we understand it) it may seem to be.

For me this is all in the mind. I don't mean that it is all an illusion, but something - the slowing down of time, the slowing of light, the curvature of space creates reality within a great and universal mind in which we humans have reached a point where we too are slowly becoming aware of our place in the newly discovered and utterly mind-blowing suggestion that there are at least two trillion galaxies in the known universe.

The reason we are here is that this universal intelligence which or who isn't interested in whether you eat pork or are circumcised has only one target, one without end - to experience in one way or another everything that can possibly be experienced.

Fantastic.

I read with pleasure the wistful reflections of another who clearly uses mind to navigate those paths which are both so familiar and yet distant. Imagine a city transportation system which consists of nothing but round a bouts. Emotion will prod us to keep going. Mind might bid us pull to the curb and have a beer while others rush by, hoping that some day some ordering rhyme will be revealed. Before the end though a bit of straight road will appear and things will begin to make better sense.

When I was a teen I knew an old lady. This was in the middle fifties. She was then 88 years old. I thought that she was out of her mind, a little afraid of her. One day she grasped my arm with a bony hand and declared "all I want is a coffin and a place to rest". Years later I had the idea that in her case death was experienced in a gentle way. A little at a time opposed to all at once. I wondered if she, in her dreams, could see something approaching that finally made sense of it and was yearning for culmination.

Good post...

James/Bart

[7luminaries]

Hello Bart!
I understand you are speaking of a further "birthing" as human souls which is geared toward or formatted for human incarnation.
I am speaking of a [for lack of a better term] birthing of individuated consciousness which is not formatted for any particular type of incarnation, necessarily. It is outside of time or space but "after" source. It is the most fundamental unit of individuated beingness, whilst at the same time never separate from One or Source consciousness but comes into being to apprehend what is uniquely.

When I say that consciousness is a principle it is because I am otherwise at a loss to define it in a better way. No matter how smart a man is there are always limits to his ability to know things. And.... we humans are restricted by our levels of consciousness too. If we raise ourselves through wisdom we can understand more but so long as we have to live in these bodies on a solid planet we have to settle for "not quite".

Yes agreed...consciousness simply is.

You also describe the origin of particularly human souls, and whilst this is not exactly what I speak of, I do understand that we cannot embody a human form unless everything that supports that has also come into being, then to fruition, and then is sustainable for an aeon or two.

As to why you are as you are (and not, say, as I am), etc., why your individuated aspect of Unity consciousness was "born" where you were, proximate to whomever you were, on the tapestry of consciousness...etc., well no one...whether human or transcendental...no one has these specific answers. Yes...I've asked them too hahaha !!! Here I believe we can go further and understand more by considering the combinations of our personalities and our soul aspects. Two men will agree yet disagree because they are not the same person with the same vantage points. (this opinion disregards the possibility of purposeful deceit). When a man is born he takes that first breath of air. But wait. There is more to this event. We also have ethereal bodies. These too respire just like the physical throughout our lives. So when we take the first breath into our physical a first breath is also taken into our ethereal bodies. This serves to condition the body by establishing a baseline of potential attributes which remains for the rest of the life. Here we find that we are speaking of astrology. Human personality attributes come from various distribution points found near and far. Constellations of stars provide some. Secondarily our own sun and planets provide others. This is a concern of vast esoteric import. Far too heavy duty for a quickie statement. Suffice to say that these two channels that open at birth are the physical and the subtle (spiritual). The personality is then a product of physical environment and experience but also of spiritual conditioning. All because of what happened at the moment of birth. This is the largely unknown reason astrologers who do natal charts want to know the time and place of birth. It's all real.

I spoke of the journey of the human soul because it seemed to be a necessary part of the "why" question that so many entertain. I have studied much in this area. And Bart is a source and guide to me who sometimes refuses to shut up. ha ha....

Of course, experiencing as human beings is a part of the whole story because we could have chosen something else that is other than. But in fact, the core mystery of "why" our unique individuated expression of Source is as it is, remains...utterly mysterious and prime. That is exactly my point.

My expression of Source is unique and different to yours, and I am "located" most proximate to (so to speak) other individuated aspects of Source that are different to those most proximate to you. That is at the core of the mystery of consciousness and being...however we may or may not choose to experience physical incarnation.

I'm only a few years from my own return to the "heavenly fields". I intend to make full use of the opportunities that are then presented.

Good discussion. Thanks..

When you say "transcendental" do you refer to the post human paths of experience or do you mean something else?

When I say transcendental, I refer to those stewards and guides that brought forth and maintain all this material expression and ultimately shepherd our journeys at various levels, as well. We might call them elder brothers. They too experience their consciousness and being as a gift and for all their power and knowledge and immense good, they are not all-knowing. I.e., they cannot answer the core mysteries of why at the ultimate level. But I can trust that what they do share and engage in is for my highest good equally to all others, and vice versa. That is the main thing.

Peace & blessings
7L

It is my understand, based on channelings from Bart and other sources, that no consciousness is at all separated from the "source". Indeed it is misleading to think in geometrical terms where the source is in one place and a human consciousness is in another. Rather the source is embodied by the entirety of it's created, manifested "body". Within this whole each little piece of matter or soul is connected to the whole as it is qualified to do so. So a rock has little consciousness but a human soul has much more. Both being within the body of the source.

It is also my understanding that human souls are born to their appropriate plane (usually the high end of the mental). They are born in groups of souls with a common soul. Then they prepare to come to Earth to begin their long series of lifetimes. As a part of this they must learn to be individuals because that is the way we live here. So the individual human soul begins by taking on it's first physical body/personality. Long ages later when the cycle is complete human souls reform into groups and leave. So.... the phenomena of individuality is only found on physical worlds.

I find no mysteries in any of this. I also firmly believe that a human soul must inhabit a human body. This is because in no other form would the physical brain be adequate for expression. There are all sorts of souls. Mineral, vegetable, animal, human and post human. They exists in their own evolutionary circles wherein there is a progression from one to another but each type is limited to the corresponding physical form.

The term "time and space" seems to refer to our familiar universe. Above the physical there is time of a different sort and there is space only in that surroundings can be discerned but none of these are in any way comparable to the lower physical reflections.

Regarding our guides. Human souls live in groups on their own plane. Within each one or two will be more advanced than the others. These often serve as guides. We, in turn, (our souls that is) will also be guides to others junior to us. It is commonly believed that there is a race of beings apart that supports lesser activities. It is my belief based on many channelings that it is advanced human and post humanity that serves in these capacities. Adepts and master souls are only human souls that have achieved a certain level of awareness and thus responsibility. Many groups of human souls are found near to the Earth working to support our planet. These are not mysterious beings from distant unknowable realms. They are us but only more advanced. Where they are and what they do we will also do when we are grown. This great assemblage is known in esoteria as the hierarchy of the planet. At it's head is one most senior who bears the title of Christ (world teacher). There is nothing religious in any of this. That title, through it's Greek origins, has been borrowed by those who began the Christian group.

Interesting exchange. Most of the little areas of discussion are to do with differing terms. But there is no need for conformity on such a level. To do so would foster just another divide or separation. We humans are pretty good at that already....

Thanks for the fun discussion.

James/Bartholomew

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by bartholomew

It is my understand, based on channelings from Bart and other sources, that no consciousness is at all separated from the "source". Indeed it is misleading to think in geometrical terms where the source is in one place and a human consciousness is in another. Rather the source is embodied by the entirety of it's created, manifested "body". Within this whole each little piece of matter or soul is connected to the whole as it is qualified to do so. So a rock has little consciousness but a human soul has much more. Both being within the body of the source.

Hello Bart!
Agreed no "bit" or parcel of consciousness is ever separated from source. Individuation of consciousness in no way means separate...that is illusory. All consciousness is of Unity consciousness, although we experience what is through individuation (of whatever level).

Our consciousness in its individuation is also eternal and timeless...we have always been. Eternal consciousness aside, what we lack or need is wisdom and maturity gained through experience and learning...and particularly via incarnation. This is where the formation of particular types of souls would apply. And in this way, this is exactly where we seem "young" in our experience of eternal consciousness against the eternal consciousness of the transcendentals.

However whether your incarnation is human or humanoid or what have ye, your individuated consciousness exists outside of and has existed "prior to" incarnation. It simply is, and it remains unique and prime (indivisible), even whilst it exists in interbeing with all else. That is the mystery.

It is also my understanding that human souls are born to their appropriate plane (usually the high end of the mental). They are born in groups of souls with a common soul. Then they prepare to come to Earth to begin their long series of lifetimes. As a part of this they must learn to be individuals because that is the way we live here. So the individual human soul begins by taking on it's first physical body/personality. Long ages later when the cycle is complete human souls reform into groups and leave. So.... the phenomena of individuality is only found on physical worlds.

I find no mysteries in any of this. I also firmly believe that a human soul must inhabit a human body. This is because in no other form would the physical brain be adequate for expression. There are all sorts of souls. Mineral, vegetable, animal, human and post human. They exists in their own evolutionary circles wherein there is a progression from one to another but each type is limited to the corresponding physical form.

The term "time and space" seems to refer to our familiar universe. Above the physical there is time of a different sort and there is space only in that surroundings can be discerned but none of these are in any way comparable to the lower physical reflections.

Yes. Linear time is not what I intend when I refer to a spiritual awareness of our origins of individuated consciousness being "after" Source. Nor does the spiritual proximity to other individuated aspects of One translate to material space. These are simply terms I used to attempt to describe or portray the fabric of consciousness from our limited human perspective

Regarding our guides. Human souls live in groups on their own plane. Within each one or two will be more advanced than the others. These often serve as guides. We, in turn, (our souls that is) will also be guides to others junior to us. It is commonly believed that there is a race of beings apart that supports lesser activities. It is my belief based on many channelings that it is advanced human and post humanity that serves in these capacities. Adepts and master souls are only human souls that have achieved a certain level of awareness and thus responsibility. Many groups of human souls are found near to the Earth working to support our planet. These are not mysterious beings from distant unknowable realms. They are us but only more advanced. Where they are and what they do we will also do when we are grown. This great assemblage is known in esoteria as the hierarchy of the planet. At it's head is one most senior who bears the title of Christ (world teacher). There is nothing religious in any of this. That title, through it's Greek origins, has been borrowed by those who began the Christian group.

Interesting exchange. Most of the little areas of discussion are to do with differing terms. But there is no need for conformity on such a level. To do so would foster just another divide or separation. We humans are pretty good at that already....

Thanks for the fun discussion.

James/Bartholomew

Yes I understood you referred to guides on the level of Jesus or perhaps far beyond but who had clearly incarnated as humans.
I do agree they serve to guide many at various levels, personal and aggregate. These human or once-human guides are not those to whom I refer. Though I do think that aspiring to the depth of moral intelligence and to the heart-led consciousness of Jesus and those like him or "beyond" is a true and good thing generally. And we can use all the help we can get from guides of all sorts.

There is nothing religious in the group to whom I refer either as transcendental. Religious concepts are man-made and in no way define or constrain the reality of what is. We have our tasks ahead...which is to aspire to the Christ consciousness and beyond...and they have theirs. We are (Jesus too) all included in their tasks...which are part and parcel of their service to and their love of what is. Because when you have all of eternity, apparently, you can get your priorities in order

You're very welcome and it's very interesting IMO when we provide more detail about each of our perspectives, as some overlaps and other bits, less so.
Peace & blessings
7L

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Hello Bart!
Agreed no "bit" or parcel of consciousness is ever separated from source. Individuation of consciousness in no way means separate...that is illusory. All consciousness is of Unity consciousness, although we experience what is through individuation (of whatever level).

Our consciousness in its individuation is also eternal and timeless...we have always been. Eternal consciousness aside, what we lack or need is wisdom and maturity gained through experience and learning...and particularly via incarnation. This is where the formation of particular types of souls would apply. And in this way, this is exactly where we seem "young" in our experience of eternal consciousness against the eternal consciousness of the transcendentals.

However whether your incarnation is human or humanoid or what have ye, your individuated consciousness exists outside of and has existed "prior to" incarnation. It simply is, and it remains unique and prime (indivisible), even whilst it exists in interbeing with all else. That is the mystery.

Yes. Linear time is not what I intend when I refer to a spiritual awareness of our origins of individuated consciousness being "after" Source. Nor does the spiritual proximity to other individuated aspects of One translate to material space. These are simply terms I used to attempt to describe or portray the fabric of consciousness from our limited human perspective

Yes I understood you referred to guides on the level of Jesus or perhaps far beyond but who had clearly incarnated as humans.
I do agree they serve to guide many at various levels, personal and aggregate. These human or once-human guides are not those to whom I refer. Though I do think that aspiring to the depth of moral intelligence and to the heart-led consciousness of Jesus and those like him or "beyond" is a true and good thing generally. And we can use all the help we can get from guides of all sorts.

There is nothing religious in the group to whom I refer either as transcendental. Religious concepts are man-made and in no way define or constrain the reality of what is. We have our tasks ahead...which is to aspire to the Christ consciousness and beyond...and they have theirs. We are (Jesus too) all included in their tasks...which are part and parcel of their service to and their love of what is. Because when you have all of eternity, apparently, you can get your priorities in order

You're very welcome and it's very interesting IMO when we provide more detail about each of our perspectives, as some overlaps and other bits, less so.
Peace & blessings
7L

Yes. And most of us are inclined to look to the high places with searching gaze when everything we need is right in front of us. The spiritual components of our planet are planned and built just for us.

Nice exchange.... James/Bart

[weareunity]

Hello all.

High on the list of difficulties and challenges when applying our resources in our attempts to interpret and understand concerns fulfilling the requirements which will allow open minded enquiry.

Open minded enquiry requires what it says on the box--an open mind free of assumptions, presumptions, prejudice, access to relevant information, being among the most obvious requirements.

When doing our best to clear our emotional and mental decks in order to fulfil these requirements, we may also choose to consider the role of our certainties and beliefs in this context. This is not to pour disdain and doubt upon our beliefs, nor necessarily to abandon our certainties. What we can do however is to at least perceive our certainties and beliefs as stepping stones on a continuous journey of understanding rather than as totems to having arrived at understanding.

Not only does this enable constructive discussion between those with different certainties and beliefs, but may also help keep the journey of understanding continuous and not stuck in misconception.

The words "those who have ears to hear, let them hear" does not, as we know I am sure, refer to hearing loss, but to the openness of the mind.--Something of which I for one most certainly need to be reminded.

petex

Originally Posted by weareunity

Hello all.

High on the list of difficulties and challenges when applying our resources in our attempts to interpret and understand concerns fulfilling the requirements which will allow open minded enquiry.

Open minded enquiry requires what it says on the box--an open mind free of assumptions, presumptions, prejudice, access to relevant information, being among the most obvious requirements.

When doing our best to clear our emotional and mental decks in order to fulfil these requirements, we may also choose to consider the role of our certainties and beliefs in this context. This is not to pour disdain and doubt upon our beliefs, nor necessarily to abandon our certainties. What we can do however is to at least perceive our certainties and beliefs as stepping stones on a continuous journey of understanding rather than as totems to having arrived at understanding.

Not only does this enable constructive discussion between those with different certainties and beliefs, but may also help keep the journey of understanding continuous and not stuck in misconception.

The words "those who have ears to hear, let them hear" does not, as we know I am sure, refer to hearing loss, but to the openness of the mind.--Something of which I for one most certainly need to be reminded.

petex

I agree especially considering the rational need to account for the fluidity of truth.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by bartholomew

Yes. And most of us are inclined to look to the high places with searching gaze when everything we need is right in front of us. The spiritual components of our planet are planned and built just for us.

Nice exchange.... James/Bart

Bart, hello there!
Agreed that this life and further simply this moment here and now presents and offers many challenges and opportunities...truly a wonder. I also think that the lessons learnt at this scale of offer insight into the same eternal truths to be found anywhere. Authentic love...lovingkindness, equanimity...these lessons may be in some ways more challenging when learnt here, but they are universal experiences -- no matter the flavour or situation in which you've experienced them.

Do you think most look to the high places (so to speak)? I think many engage in very little reflection of any kind, including self-reflection or any consideration of who they are at core. Or even of truth, beauty, and goodness of what is. Even when it is literally right in front of them, in them, and all around them. Though I do feel the foundational movement toward transparency (greater awareness) and empathy is in progress...and I do see that children today are more aware and IMO more spiritually attuned to what is, which is a beautiful thing.

Peace & blessings
7L

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Bart, hello there!
Agreed that this life and further simply this moment here and now presents and offers many challenges and opportunities...truly a wonder. I also think that the lessons learnt at this scale of offer insight into the same eternal truths to be found anywhere. Authentic love...lovingkindness, equanimity...these lessons may be in some ways more challenging when learnt here, but they are universal experiences -- no matter the flavour or situation in which you've experienced them.

Do you think most look to the high places (so to speak)? I think many engage in very little reflection of any kind, including self-reflection or any consideration of who they are at core. Or even of truth, beauty, and goodness of what is. Even when it is literally right in front of them, in them, and all around them. Though I do feel the foundational movement toward transparency (greater awareness) and empathy is in progress...and I do see that children today are more aware and IMO more spiritually attuned to what is, which is a beautiful thing.

Peace & blessings
7L

Just a thought regarding your last paragraph. Yes I really do think most folks do turn their gaze high. I contend that since the first homowhatever looked up at the night sky the allure of the unknown became fixed in our group psyche. Or something like that. I also believe that we have innate knowledge of our spiritual natures. If not why all the interest in things spiritual at all? Why do there always seem to be temples and magicians and shamans in ancient lore? If we tended to find truth in places even with our gaze none of these other things would have held so much interest for so long.

Read the forum comments and find that so many speak of their guides as though they were extraordinary beings from far away. My reality is that, yes, most of us do have one guide, sometimes two, but these are human souls just like us except that they are a little more advanced than we are. In this I see many reaching to high places where the element of mystery better captures the imagination.

On a side note it is common for folks to practice spirituality in terms of their personalities. This practice makes detachment and thus high contact much harder to achieve. So the tie in is this.... To really have a solid spiritual connection one must look at least higher than the Earthly self.

Since beginning to channel Bartholomew some years ago I have come to realize that advanced souls are still people just like the rest of us. So I speak in plainer terms avoiding titles when possible and so on. Bartholomew? Who is he? He never told me. If I were to assume I might try to claim he was the Bartholomew of the twelve apostles. I don't because I don't know that. Is he my own soul? Maybe. When connected it sure feels familiar. To be successful as a channel though a little discipline is needed so I try not to carry on too much about the matter. I'll find out for sure in a couple of years when it's my turn to return to spirit.

James/Bart