time and change

[Rabiaa]

If the past is an illusion, then change means nothing...
How is it that we perceive changes all around us ?

[iamthat]

The nature of form is change. But if form is an illusion then changes in form are also an illusion.

The nature of formlessness is changeless. It is this changelessness which allows us to be the witness to change in form. We observe the movement of form from a point of stillness.

Peace.

[Rabiaa]

Thanks for your reply. I can see that the nature of form is change. But in my understanding, form is an illusion because of change. Since things appear and disappear, thus they are not real. But this does not imply necessarily that change is unreal. I feel like change is not limited to form. I don't really understand why the formless is changeless.

[Dather12]

The phrase "form is an illusion" doesn't mean that nothing is there, it's moreso that your label of what something is, is the illusion.

Eckhart Tolle provided a great example, which I'll modify:

Imagine your closet. Chances are it has a door that slides open. Now, where does the closet start and end? Because if the door wasn't there, or if there is an air pocket that connects it to your main room, then there's no real place where the closet "starts" and your room "ends."

Likewise it can be said about your room in connection to the whole house -- there is a door that separates it probably, but there's no determined "line" or point where your room ends and the hallway begins. As far as the universe is concerned, there is no separation between your closet and your kitchen -- air connects the two. Solid objects connect the two. There is no "boundary" where energy can't flow in between them. Thus, to the universe, there is no "closet."

[JosephineB]

Originally Posted by iamthat

The nature of form is change. But if form is an illusion then changes in form are also an illusion.

The nature of formlessness is changeless. It is this changelessness which allows us to be the witness to change in form. We observe the movement of form from a point of stillness.

Peace.

Mind blown.

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by Rabiaa

Thanks for your reply. I can see that the nature of form is change. But in my understanding, form is an illusion because of change. Since things appear and disappear, thus they are not real. But this does not imply necessarily that change is unreal. I feel like change is not limited to form. I don't really understand why the formless is changeless.

We could say that everything is real on its own level, while also being an illusion from the perspective of a "higher" level.

So if I hit my thumb with a hammer it will hurt. No matter how much I tell myself that my thumb and the hammer are not real, the pain feels very real. But from a greater perspective the thumb and the hammer are temporary manifestations in form and the experience of pain is just a flow of energy.

Form is change because form is limited in both time and space. Nothing in form stays the same. Formlessness is not limited in either time or space. Formlessness is a state of Being. What is there in formlessness to change?

And yet we also have to recognise that this talk of form and formlessness is from the perspective of the human experience. The esoteric approach teaches that the state which a human being experiences as changeless formless Being is contained within greater states which may still be considered as form from a Cosmic perspective. As below, so above.

Peace.

[Uday_Advaita]

Originally Posted by Rabiaa

If the past is an illusion, then change means nothing...
How is it that we perceive changes all around us ?

Unfortunately, humans are saddled with memory. Had there been no memory, would you have noticed changes??

Appearing and disappearing of forms happens only in the present moment.

Humans perceive changes in the present moment only - when comparing with or relative to the picture of the past memory, as also comparing with speculative picture of the unknown future.

As such past and future are not really real and do not “exist” in phenomenality except perhaps only in your mind. That is why these are called illusions.

The true reality is only the present Non-dual moment.
Namaskar

[Miss Hepburn]

Originally Posted by Rabiaa

If the past is an illusion, then change means nothing...
How is it that we perceive changes all around us ?

Excellent question for this section. Welcome here, btw

Isn't this just the pièce de résistance? This is my input:
Change means nothing, correct!
Age means nothing, death means nothing, rich or poor,
health or sickness mean nothing!

SO, the thing that many of us here are pursuing is for the cloud of ignorance to be lifted so we can see who we really are:
extensions of the Changeless One...existing in a timeless place in pure awareness of Reality...the changeless, infinite Absolute.

Until we Awaken to Reality...we are encased in these meat suits with 5 senses that perceive the dance of atoms!

Ah, such fun to be on this Journey of
ultimate discovery...peeling the layers from our deluded sight here.

The real question is ,"Why?" Why create this whole cosmic illusive dance?
I can give my input on that, also.


*Oh, I see you are no longer here...maybe you read here still...oh well.

[Miss Hepburn]

Originally Posted by Uday_Advaita

Unfortunately, humans are saddled with memory. Had there been no memory, would you have noticed changes??

Lol...remember this is the Non-duality section...is it really unfortunate... or just the way it 'is'. Lololol..

[Uday_Advaita]

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

Lol...remember this is the Non-duality section...is it really unfortunate... or just the way it 'is'. Lololol..

Yes.... For we poor human objects, we have no choice but to appear in the phenomenal world of duality.

Fortunate or unfortunate .... is inevitable....

But to give it to you ... as rightly said .....just the way it "is" (the non-dual moment of truth), which needs no qualification....
Namaskar