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  #21  
Old 15-11-2019, 04:18 AM
BigJohn BigJohn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7luminaries
Hello John! As of today, we are all still in semi-functional democracies here in the West (LOL). That statement was in regard to dealing with rigid mindsets that adhere to fixed doctrine, whether "secular", "religious", or what have ye.

And it was comparing 1) my experiences with these mindsets today and the real dangers they pose to 2) my flashbacks (very visceral memories across many lifetimes) of having lived under various authoritarian regimes, with different levels of technology but perpetrating the same harms.

Totalitarianism comprises the self-same mindsets, the slavish adherence to doctrine, the rigidity, the scapegoating, and the suppression of all dissent. The difference is the suppression is typically enforced with the boot or the fist, and not just through scapegoating, shunning, and mockery.

Peace & blessings
7L

I do not think there are any "semi-functional democracies". Where I live, it is a Republic.

As for history, I do not see it being any 'worse' or 'better'. To me, it is a reflection of a person's perspective.
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He dipped the pen into the ink and then faltered for just a second. A tremor had gone through his bowels. To mark the paper was the decisive act. In small clumsy letters he wrote: ........... April 4th, 1984.
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  #22  
Old 15-11-2019, 01:10 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
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BigJohn, hello there!
There are many measures of functionality and equity in a democracy or in any form of government or society. To the degree that there are areas which are in much greater need of attention, functionality, and equity, we may readily say these areas are lacking entirely, are dysfunctional, or, to take a middle ground (LOL) are semi-functional. As is often the case, where some aspects are attended to and others are not.

Regarding better or worse, I disagree. There are very clear differences, regardless of the fact that no society and no government is free from some misalignment. Nonetheless, the objective fact is that most non-representative democratic forms of government are oppressive, autocratic, often dogmatic in the extreme, and often extremely violent and capricious. That is, most non-representative democratic forms of government display what we would call intentional foundational misalignment, as in not right-aligned with One. Lacking in justice, human rights, humane punishment or correction, and nearly all forms of expression. They are not founded on authentic love (equanimous lovingkindness), which actively seeks and wills the good of the other(s) equally to the self, and the self equally to all others.

Thus, there are very real, concrete, and manifest differences in these forms of government, and they originate from very real, concrete, and manifest differences in perspective. It is not that perspectives are separate from reality, as your statement seems to indicate. Rather, there is a clear and direct relationship. That is, as consciousness has always impacted matter, the foundational and contributing perspectives shape the outline and functional form of the government. This is how governments are formed and this is how they are either nurtured and sustained or else eroded and compromised.

Different perspectives based on different values will, if allowed, lead from dysfunction, misalignment, and autocracy -- where only the voice of the powerful matters -- toward representative democracy, where [in theory] everyone matters and everyone has a say. It is under representative democracy where we are most fully confronted with the power and burden of our individual and collective ownership and responsibilities. Therefore it is under this form of social contract (representative democracy) in which everyone is (at last) most fully and pervasively required to grow up and take ownership.

Even though society and its individuals in the West are certainly having some trouble accepting this and taking ownership of the full spectrum of their behavior and their choices (*snort*), nonetheless it is an inescapable part of the maturation process, individually and as a species. One of the biggest reasons for re-incarnation is to have the opportunity to take part in a representative democracy...AND then to choose wisely...to overcome our selfishness and learn to make the right choices, those which support the highest good of all, equally. As it is that foundational to our growth on our journey as souls.

So if your opinion is that a brutal dictatorship or an oppressive totalitarian regime (of any flavor) is "no better or worse" than a representative democracy (even if semi-functional), then we will have to agree to disagree

Peace & blessings
7L
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Bound by conventions, people tend to reach for what is easy.

Here we must be unafraid of what is difficult.

For all living beings in nature must unfold in their particular way

and become themselves despite all opposition.

-- Rainer Maria Rilke
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  #23  
Old 16-11-2019, 02:59 AM
BigJohn BigJohn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7luminaries
BigJohn, hello there!
There are many measures of functionality and equity in a democracy or in any form of government or society. To the degree that there are areas which are in much greater need of attention, functionality, and equity, we may readily say these areas are lacking entirely, are dysfunctional, or, to take a middle ground (LOL) are semi-functional. As is often the case, where some aspects are attended to and others are not.
There appear to be no countries that are democracies. Historically, democracies just
do not work out. The largest type of government on the planet are Republics.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7luminaries
Regarding better or worse, I disagree. There are very clear differences, regardless of the fact that no society and no government is free from some misalignment. Nonetheless, the objective fact is that most non-representative democratic forms of government are oppressive, autocratic, often dogmatic in the extreme, and often extremely violent and capricious. That is, most non-representative democratic forms of government display what we would call intentional foundational misalignment, as in not right-aligned with One. Lacking in justice, human rights, humane punishment or correction, and nearly all forms of expression. They are not founded on authentic love (equanimous lovingkindness), which actively seeks and wills the good of the other(s) equally to the self, and the self equally to all others.
Non-representative democracies do not exist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7luminaries
Thus, there are very real, concrete, and manifest differences in these forms of government, and they originate from very real, concrete, and manifest differences in perspective. It is not that perspectives are separate from reality, as your statement seems to indicate. Rather, there is a clear and direct relationship. That is, as consciousness has always impacted matter, the foundational and contributing perspectives shape the outline and functional form of the government. This is how governments are formed and this is how they are either nurtured and sustained or else eroded and compromised.
I have lived under various forms of government and I have not noticed any major differences.

Different perspectives based on different values will, if allowed, lead from dysfunction, misalignment, and autocracy -- where only the voice of the powerful matters -- toward representative democracy, where [in theory] everyone matters and everyone has a say. It is under representative democracy where we are most fully confronted with the power and burden of our individual and collective ownership and responsibilities. Therefore it is under this form of social contract (representative democracy) in which everyone is (at last) most fully and pervasively required to grow up and take ownership.
Democracies have never worked. Why would you think it would work in this time period?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7luminaries
Even though society and its individuals in the West are certainly having some trouble accepting this and taking ownership of the full spectrum of their behavior and their choices (*snort*), nonetheless it is an inescapable part of the maturation process, individually and as a species. One of the biggest reasons for re-incarnation is to have the opportunity to take part in a representative democracy...AND then to choose wisely...to overcome our selfishness and learn to make the right choices, those which support the highest good of all, equally. As it is that foundational to our growth on our journey as souls.
I find that one of the biggest reasons for reincarnation involves
representative democracy is a stretch of the imagination.
So if your opinion is that a brutal dictatorship or an oppressive totalitarian regime (of any flavor) is "no better or worse" than a representative democracy (even if semi-functional), then we will have to agree to disagree [/quote]
Representative democracies have never worked. Do you realize how much of your time would be devoted to carry this out?
And what happens if somebody (probably most people) do not want to participate?
__________________
..
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He dipped the pen into the ink and then faltered for just a second. A tremor had gone through his bowels. To mark the paper was the decisive act. In small clumsy letters he wrote: ........... April 4th, 1984.
..................
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  #24  
Old 19-11-2019, 07:11 PM
Truth307 Truth307 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy
"Dean Radin speaks at the Science of Consciousness Conference in Tucson 2016. Dean Radin, PhD, is chief scientist at the Institute of Noetic Sciences (IONS)."

https://youtu.be/nRSBaq3vAeY?list=PL...ywQvhBzzdrQ A

The gentleman moderating the Q&A is Stuart Hameroff, an anesthesiologist and professor at the University of Arizona who, along with Sir Roger Penrose formulated the Orch OR hypothesis of consciousness.

The questioner at 37:45 is world-renowned philosopher of mind David Chalmers who coined the phrase "The Hard Problem" of consciousness.


It can, which is why you hear of ghosts moving things around etc. Moses parted the sea etc.
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  #25  
Old 21-11-2019, 04:29 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
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John hello...so, are you saying you've lived in your current lifetime under totalitarian regimes as an ordinary subject with no special protections?

And that you see little to no difference there to representative democracies such as those we live in, in the West (which have existed only in the recent historic period and are still evolving)?

If so, then we must agree to disagree, on most of the core fundamentals of our lived experience...and good on you for having survived!

Peace & blessings
7L
__________________
Bound by conventions, people tend to reach for what is easy.

Here we must be unafraid of what is difficult.

For all living beings in nature must unfold in their particular way

and become themselves despite all opposition.

-- Rainer Maria Rilke
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  #26  
Old 23-11-2019, 04:07 AM
BigJohn BigJohn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7luminaries
John hello...so, are you saying you've lived in your current lifetime under totalitarian regimes as an ordinary subject with no special protections?

And that you see little to no difference there to representative democracies such as those we live in, in the West (which have existed only in the recent historic period and are still evolving)?

If so, then we must agree to disagree, on most of the core fundamentals of our lived experience...and good on you for having survived!

Peace & blessings
7L
Does Marshal Law count?

Can you list some 'representative democracies?

As far as I know, none exist.
__________________
..
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He dipped the pen into the ink and then faltered for just a second. A tremor had gone through his bowels. To mark the paper was the decisive act. In small clumsy letters he wrote: ........... April 4th, 1984.
..................
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  #27  
Old 30-11-2019, 05:20 PM
Little Creek77 Little Creek77 is offline
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Ever consider that Matter IS Consciousness??
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  #28  
Old 01-12-2019, 10:21 AM
JustASimpleGuy JustASimpleGuy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Creek77
Ever consider that Matter IS Consciousness??

Come up with absolute definitions and understandings of both matter and consciousness and the question can be answered, however that would require omniscience so I'm not holding my breathe for answers.

The best we can probably do is establish some relationship between them, but the understanding of the relationship will be based on the state of existence we inhabit so it will most likely be a flawed approximation and only from our frame of reference.

In short we simply don't have the intellectual capacity to understand, and by our very nature and the nature of the existence we're anchored in we never will.
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  #29  
Old 01-12-2019, 03:51 PM
Little Creek77 Little Creek77 is offline
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When Consciousness interacts with structure in our brains Consciousness has time, place, and self. Consciousness also makes up that structure. Consciousness carries information from one brain cell to the next.
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  #30  
Old 01-12-2019, 08:04 PM
JustASimpleGuy JustASimpleGuy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Creek77
When Consciousness interacts with structure in our brains Consciousness has time, place, and self. Consciousness also makes up that structure. Consciousness carries information from one brain cell to the next.

That's speculation at the very best and you haven't even begun to define what matter and consciousness actually are. If you cant define and describe consciousness in detail you can't describe how it manifests matter and then interacts with itself via manifested matter. Don't feel bad as physicists, neuroscientists and psychologists can't either.

The mind of God knows but I'm afraid it eludes the minds of mere mortals and will forever do so, and that's okay because I can appreciate the beauty and splendor of it all without knowing the nitty-gritty details.
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"Research your own experience; absorb what is useful, reject what is useless and add what is essentially your own." ~ Bruce Lee

"Of a certainty the man who can see all creatures in himself, himself in all creatures, knows no sorrow." ~ Upanishads

https://tinyurl.com/y2mxr4s2 My YouTube Channel

JASG
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