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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Non Duality

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Old 06-09-2017, 02:48 PM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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Originally Posted by Jyotir
Hi Necromancer,

Non-dual (Transcendent) precedes Creation of dual. Dual is a conditional aspect of Existence. The Transcendent is not dependent on the conditional, but the reverse is true. ("I pervade the entire Creation with a fragment of Myself, and yet I remain", etc.)

However, since All is One, any formal conditional differentiation of Self may realize Self because it essentially is That Self. This is why the physical is so significant - but especially a self-conscious human life is even more so.

“I” is the differentiated individual. “That” is the undifferentiated/Transcendent”. See previous

Yes, but those doing the praying are usually those who have not realized who they are. Therefore they are praying to a
‘form’-al representation of the 'ideal' (realized) status e.g., the fully conscious Self, as represented by ______________which they have not as yet realized as instruments, even though they are ‘That’ ideal in essence. Therefore praying to oneself, who has yet not realized Self, could be a bit confusing since ignorance justmight be present in the unrealized being as a means of cognition thereby creating the confusion of what constitutes 'self'. This is why there is yogic efficacy in so-called ideal forms/chosen ideal/nishtha, etc.

Brahman sez, because Brahman is. Since All is One how could it NOT be the case? Therefore form not only represents the formless, it IS essentially the formless. This is the basis of Realization.

Then you didn’t stop it.

Maybe you are not yet realized.

In the plant kingdom, a flower/blossom represents realization. In the human kingdom we have far less flowers, a notable rarity of blooms, but an increasing number of buds.

I suggest reading Sri Aurobindo's Synthesis of Yoga, and in particular, Part 2, “The Yoga of Integral Knowledge” which deals specifically with Jnana and non-dual issues; also many chapters in “The Life Divine” which is also recommended.

~ J
Thank you so much for that most wise and indepth reply.

So, to put it all in terms of reference I can grasp, Purusha is Purusha, Prakriti is Prakriti but Purusha + Prakriti is still Purusha.

I think it's just a case of my mind chasing its own tail in regards to bhakti and my own experiences.

I can fully get it from my own perspective of awareness, whether I am 'realised' or not, but trying to get it from an external awareness, or the philosophy outside of it, is where I become unstuck.

For example and in regards, I have experienced that state in which neither the "I" nor "Shiva" exists during intense Dhyan and there is no awareness of being whatsoever, there is only that feeling of unconditional love, peace and joy...but when I am not totally lost in that experience, Shiva still exists and what "I" am is just eclipsed by love for Shiva.

However, to one who is not a bhakti yogi, I cannot see how it relates whatsoever...but then again, I probably wasn't meant to.

That being said, thank you for those references and I shall get around to reading them at my earliest convenience.

Also, when I type in light blue, that is my 'Higher Self' coming through to explain things to me through me and so I am getting it now.
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Old 06-09-2017, 03:49 PM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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Please allow me to also tackle that post in question.

Try thinking backwards, Necro and it will make more sense then:

Originally Posted by The Necromancer
I have always been confused that if something is 'non-dual' then it also must have that which is 'dual' to make it 'non-dual' and thus 'non-dual' is still 'dual'.
If something is 'dual', it must also have that which is 'non-dual' to make it 'dual' and therefore 'dual' is still 'non-dual'.

Originally Posted by The Necromancer
I have also been confused with the "I am That" assuming "That" does not exist apart from the "I" and even the relationship between an "I" and a "That" is a dual one.
It's just word-play semantics. If something exists as being what it truly is, then it cannot be any other way. If it confuses you less, you can just drop "That" and stick with "I AM".

Originally Posted by The Necromancer
I have been totally confused by the saguna aspect of a divine consciousness, represented in manifest form, when if people are praying to it, or even what it represents, are not they merely praying to themselves?
We have been through this many times before! The imminent and transcendent are one, yet there is still an imminent and transcendent. To make it easier, the differentiated self is no different to God, but God also exists apart from it. So you are praying to the indwelling spirit within and the external spirit without.

Originally Posted by The Necromancer
Who is to say the saguna representation of Brahman has all of the attributes ascribed to it anyway? I mean how can form represent the formless in any aspect whatsoever?
So, please tell me why you worship Lord Shiva as the manifest form of Brahman again? :p

Originally Posted by The Necromancer
I adopted the path of qualified monism in the attempt to stop my mind thinking about all this too much, but it still doesn't fill in all the holes in the theory.
Maybe you should just embrace the path of dvaita totally then. It's like you are putting each of your feet into two boats here. If you can realise Brahman through dvaita that's good isn't it? You're just complicating things.

Originally Posted by The Necromancer
I'm still trying to work out why all the non-dual schools of Tantric Kashmir Shaivite philosophy still have pictures of a Puranic Shiva adorning their walls and saying "Shivoham" when I am thinking "I can't see chandra in their hair...mother Ganga either..you don't have Neelkantha...etc etc.
That would only be known to those of that school...which you are not, but you have already answered that question yourself anyway. I have also told you about the mountain that was there...then it was not there...then it was and that whole thing about 'before nirvana, chop wood, carry water...after nirvana, chop wood, carry water'. Things still exist how they are and have always been, despite the realisation of it.

Originally Posted by The Necromancer
Thus, I am like "what's the story, morning glory?"
The story is that you are trying to rationalise personal experiences which cannot be rationalised by comparing them to conflicting ideals and philosophies that do nothing to explain it and it only ends up confusing you.

Yes, you can read Jyotir's offerings, or re-read this one again and practice it! It's been 35 years since you did:


How am I doing, Jyotir?
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Old 04-10-2017, 07:13 AM
Amilius777 Amilius777 is offline
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Something to add.

There is a deep truth to Jesus allowing people to call him "the Son of God"

He never went around calling himself the "son of God' but the Gospel writers proclaimed him to be. His apostles saw him as "the Christ, the son of the living God" and he accepted it but told them never to go around spreading that info.

Mainly because the whole "Christ, Son of God" was more of a job office, a prophetic title, a vocational occupation that one would fulfill due to the prophecies in the Old Testament. It wasn't that Jesus was a "demigod" or a supernatural being pretending to be human which is how later Christianity describes him to this day.

But in John's Gospel there is some insight that John brings to the table. Jesus probably didn't say half of the things in any of the Gospels, but John has Jesus speaking a certain way to give us a message. John's insights really get to the heart of Christ.

John mentions- "the only begotten Son", "God so LOVED the world", God is Love, The Father sent the Son, if you don't have "the Son" you don't have Life, if you don't believe in the Son you are condemned.

Do you understand what is so significant about all these phrases? John is not saying Jesus is literally a small Yahweh sent by a bigger Yahweh. John is saying that if you don't "believe" which means practice in the ancient world "the Son" you don't have life. And what did Jesus practice?

He saw HIMSELF in all walks of Life. This means Jesus loved himself so much which enabled him to love everyone , and love God. It is a mathematical equation. God's Love for every soul is that of "AN ONLY BEGOTTEN" Son, you are that precious to the Divine, and that same heritage, origin, DNA is in all the people you encounter in life. How nondual is that? Jesus saw himself in everyone he ever encountered.

This is why in the Roman Catholic tradition a mystic once said "help everyone you know, you never know if they are Jesus in disguise". That means you don't know the person next to you. You can not comprehend who that person was to you in a past life or who they really are, so see everyone as Christ.

Love your enemies...means you have no enemies.
Faith is the Substance of things Hoped For!
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Old 15-10-2017, 05:55 AM
blossomingtree blossomingtree is offline
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Great post Amilius!
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Old 30-10-2017, 02:10 AM
Nowayout Nowayout is offline
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And perhaps Jesus was God in the flesh. But what is God to us where it matters?

Love, Universal love.

Within there we find joy, peace, kindness, wisdom, depth, and eternal life.

Do you want it.?

Do you truly want eternal life?

Love is hard work.

And to come back from the dead,.......... that's my Jesus.

Biblically proclaimed and misunderstood... they wanted a lion and they got a lamb.... till the Christ returns.

I will rise again too is my hope, in the Christ!

But consciousness is eternal.

Let us let our hearts shine... forever.
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