What is the best tool for Divination?

Originally Posted by IsleWalker

Those who mistrust pendulum do so because subtle movement of your arm will start the swing, will definitely affect the movement. But mistrust of any tool is because we mistrust our own information, or we mistrust that our own desires are changing the information as it comes through --rather than accepting what it is.

I'm not really clear about what you are trying to say. I still use the pendulum for certain types of Divination but i always check the results with the I-Ching.

Originally Posted by IsleWalker

Whether you accept it or not, you are Divine.

I accept that I am Divine, I don't accept that my consciousness or sub/unconsciousness is Divine. To me my subconscious is nothing but a collection of irrational fears and desires gathered from the impression of many lifetimes. I'm interested in become super-conscious not subconscious.

Originally Posted by IsleWalker

Your subconscious/unconscious is aware of a lot of information that can guide you in the right direction for you.

I think what you are referring to here is intuition which to me means God in the heart / the Supersoul / the Paramatma / the Holy Spirit. I see Guides as representatives of that Supersoul.

Originally Posted by IsleWalker

Right now you seem to be searching for a tool that you trust, that you feel you are not unduly influencing.

I'm not searching. The I-Ching is my primary tool. I've simply fine tuned my method of using it so that it is not influenced my negative entities.

Originally Posted by IsleWalker

But all tools are influenced by you.

The tool is indirectly influenced by my intuition. But I see my intuition as God in heart not me as in my conditioned mind, whether conscious or subconscious.

Originally Posted by IsleWalker

I was just questioning why you use a tool designed for complex answers, scenarios of life situations-- when what you want is Yes/No.

I don't limit the I-Ching to yes/no first of all my system gives an answer from 0-8 not 0 or 1. I use the complex answers and I use the simple answers, it depends on the question. A simple question needs a simple answer and a more general question needs a more general answer. Why do you limit the I-Ching to only giving complex answers? This simply makes it impotent. If the answers are always vague and nebulous then you are open to interpret them in anyway you wish, which means the I-Ching can't really Guide you.

Originally Posted by Quintessence

It's interesting you should ask that, because this is something I've done myself and it's among my favorite methods to use. I think when you develop your own divinatory system, it is important to make the principles behind it something that you already have an intimate understanding of. It also helps to have a strong knowledge of various systems of divination and their mechanics, so to speak. The system that you describe sounds workable depending on how you approach the methods. For example, instead of trying to obtain intelligible words, you could work with the symbolism of letters themselves. Lots of ways to refine it into something that works well, but it takes a bit of finesse to get it there.

A system of Divination must itself be of Divine origin or else what is it's value. How can you really trust the answers from a system that is concocted by an imperfect human being, such a human being will no doubt concoct an imperfect system. I consider the I-Ching to be of Divine origin. At least from a mundane perspective it's at least 3000 years old.

[IsleWalker]

I-Ching--

Your subconscious also contains memories of past lives you are not ready to accept, meanings of dreams you've had, information about your own "divinity" you are not ready to accept.

More than just bad memories, our subconscious contains lots of information we are not yet ready to process.

I didn't mean intuition. That is different IMO.

The point I was making about pendulum or i-ching or any method is that you will affect it somehow--with how you throw the dice, subtle arm movements will affect the movement of the pendulum even when you think you've absolutely controlled it.

I was saying this is not a bad thing, that we allow information through in that way--and sometimes when we don't even realize it (subconsciously).

Obviously, you don't have to agree.

IsleWalker - Lora

Originally Posted by I-Ching

A system of Divination must itself be of Divine origin or else what is it's value. How can you really trust the answers from a system that is concocted by an imperfect human being, such a human being will no doubt concoct an imperfect system. I consider the I-Ching to be of Divine origin. At least from a mundane perspective it's at least 3000 years old.

I think you and I come from two very different religious/spiritual/theological backgrounds. My theology is predominantly pantheistic and animistic; everything is deity. The dilemma here therefore doesn't apply well in my belief system. Even if I did not see everything as divine, I wouldn't require a divinatory system to be divinely-inspired. I have respect for the power and aptitudes of humans (limited though they may be) to think or guide themselves. To me, whether the results of my divinations are divinely inspired or inspired by my own experience and intuition is irrelevant. Are the results useful? Do they help me? If yes, that's all that matters to me.

[IsleWalker]

Originally Posted by Quintessence

To me, whether the results of my divinations are divinely inspired or inspired by my own experience and intuition is irrelevant. Are the results useful? Do they help me? If yes, that's all that matters to me.

I agree, Quint. Of course, I only use divination for my own information, to inform my own life. I-Ching is interested in predictions for larger audiences. Maybe that changes it for him.

Still, for me, unless I found my own divination useful to me, I couldn't trust that it would be useful for others.

Yes, though flawed, we are all divine.

IsleWalker - Lora

Originally Posted by I-Ching

If you are still conditioned by lust, greed, pride, etc; how can you be the best tool?

what you pu out by any tool if thats whats in your heart thats what youll get back. You are the best tool just go cleanse yourself.

Originally Posted by IsleWalker

Your subconscious also contains memories of past lives you are not ready to accept, meanings of dreams you've had, information about your own "divinity" you are not ready to accept.

More than just bad memories, our subconscious contains lots of information we are not yet ready to process.

I didn't mean intuition. That is different IMO.

"Forget the past that sleeps and ne'er. The future dream at all. But act in times that are with thee. And progress thee shall call." This is a quote from an Indian saint Bhaktivinoda Thukur. Similar sentiments have been echoed by many spiritual authorities. The only "authorities" that place any value on the subconscious are materialist psychologists who's speculations about spirituality are of little value to me.

Originally Posted by IsleWalker

The point I was making about pendulum or i-ching or any method is that you will affect it somehow--with how you throw the dice,

As I've already said if you can influence how a dice lands then why don't you go to a casino and demonstrate your theory. If you can't demonstrate your theory then what is it's value.

Originally Posted by IsleWalker

subtle arm movements will affect the movement of the pendulum even when you think you've absolutely controlled it.

I don't when you would want to absolutely control a pendulum, it should be controlled by whatever subtle entity you are communicating with. The problem is that it can be consciously or subconsciously controlled by you.

Originally Posted by IsleWalker

Obviously, you don't have to agree.

Yes we will have to agree to disagree

Originally Posted by Occultist

what you pu out by any tool if thats whats in your heart thats what youll get back. You are the best tool just go cleanse yourself.

I disagree. Divination implies the origin of the information I Divine must be of a higher origin than myself, otherwise it has no point.

I am trying to cleanse myself by the a process that I have received from higher authority. But in order to practice that process I require Guidance and therefore I use Divination.

So what you are proposing is a chicken and egg. I need to cleanse myself to use the tool or become a tool and I need the tool to cleanse myself.

Originally Posted by Quintessence

Even if I did not see everything as divine, I wouldn't require a divinatory system to be divinely-inspired.

Then what would you use to be divinely-inspired? How do you know what is inspiring you is actually according to Divine Will? Like many people are "divinely-inspired" to kill others and themselves in the process, is this actually Divine though.

Originally Posted by Quintessence

I have respect for the power and aptitudes of humans (limited though they may be) to think or guide themselves.

All human beings are subject to 4 defects:
They make mistakes
They are in illusion
They cheat
Their sense are imperfect and limited

Therefore they do require Guidance, especially if you are endeavoring for Self-realization; in every field of knowledge we require a Teacher.

Originally Posted by Quintessence

To me, whether the results of my divinations are divinely inspired or inspired by my own experience and intuition is irrelevant. Are the results useful? Do they help me? If yes, that's all that matters to me.

How can you have faith in the results of your Divination if you don't know what is their origin. You may have wasted your whole life before you realize that you have been misguided.

Originally Posted by IsleWalker

I-Ching is interested in predictions for larger audiences. Maybe that changes it for him.

I primarily use Divination for spiritual advancement. Prediction is just a sideline.