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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Religions & Faiths > Buddhism

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  #31  
Old 09-08-2017, 06:18 AM
Ground Ground is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by django
BTW I really enjoyed reading your quote on the previous page about the lamp or island, thankyou for posting it. But from that page there is this:

"Be an island unto yourself! Strive quickly; be wise!
Without impurities and clear, you will never again come to birth and aging."

Dhammapāda (238) of the Pali canon
http://www.buddha-dharma.eu/lamp-or-island.html

Objectively speaking, isn't this saying don't listen to anyone else and keep your own counsel? What else could "Be an island unto yourself" possibly mean?

It does mean exactly what you are saying: only if you validly know for yourself through relying on your own capacities alone can you attain liberation.

The Kalamas never can be liberated but they can lead a life without great conflicts and quite peaceful if they believe in what are social conventions. So they are advised to follow those who are considered to be wise by the world, by society.

Only to his monks does the buddha teach to apply rational analysis to come to know for themselves independent of those that are considered to be wise by the world, by society because his monks are already separated from social life and thus can focus on liberation.

So to apply rational analysis, to 'investigate to the very heart of things', will necessarily lead to results that are unconventional and not accepted by the world, by society and not accepted by those enmeshed in worldly, in social life.

if one follows the advice of anyone else, any of those self proclaimed 'teachers', one will necessarily fail as to liberation. if one follows that what is accepted by others one will necessarily fail as to liberation. Only one's own capacities in the context of the words of the buddha can lead to successful liberation because liberation can only arise from within one's own sphere.

And how can one come to validly know for oneself? Through applying the syllogistic reasoning of Dharmakirti. His logic does not establish a dhamma that is different from the buddha's dhamma but his logic is merely a tool, a template, that can be used to 'investigate to the very heart of things'. one cannot 'investigate to the very heart of things' if one is thinking irrationally.
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  #32  
Old 09-08-2017, 07:28 AM
Jeremy Bong Jeremy Bong is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ground
It does mean exactly what you are saying: only if you validly know for yourself through relying on your own capacities alone can you attain liberation.

The Kalamas never can be liberated but they can lead a life without great conflicts and quite peaceful if they believe in what are social conventions. So they are advised to follow those who are considered to be wise by the world, by society.

Only to his monks does the buddha teach to apply rational analysis to come to know for themselves independent of those that are considered to be wise by the world, by society because his monks are already separated from social life and thus can focus on liberation.

So to apply rational analysis, to 'investigate to the very heart of things', will necessarily lead to results that are unconventional and not accepted by the world, by society and not accepted by those enmeshed in worldly, in social life.

if one follows the advice of anyone else, any of those self proclaimed 'teachers', one will necessarily fail as to liberation. if one follows that what is accepted by others one will necessarily fail as to liberation. Only one's own capacities in the context of the words of the buddha can lead to successful liberation because liberation can only arise from within one's own sphere.

And how can one come to validly know for oneself? Through applying the syllogistic reasoning of Dharmakirti. His logic does not establish a dhamma that is different from the buddha's dhamma but his logic is merely a tool, a template, that can be used to 'investigate to the very heart of things'. one cannot 'investigate to the very heart of things' if one is thinking irrationally.

How can you practice liberation if according to Tibetan Buddhism meditation, you've to imagine you're (connected to) a named Buddha of Tibetan Buddhism. Obviously, it's attachments. And how to achieve liberation when on one hand to attach and the other hand you're talking of liberation. They're contradictions here and there, or wrong philosophy and practice. Dharmakirti is only more important in Tibetan Buddhism. But not in other Buddhism.
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  #33  
Old 09-08-2017, 08:11 AM
Ground Ground is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Bong
How can you practice liberation if according to Tibetan Buddhism meditation, you've to imagine you're (connected to) a named Buddha of Tibetan Buddhism. Obviously, it's attachments. And how to achieve liberation when on one hand to attach and the other hand you're talking of liberation. They're contradictions here and there, or wrong philosophy and practice. Dharmakirti is only more important in Tibetan Buddhism. But not in other Buddhism.

Sorry but tibetan buddhism cannot be practiced based on valid knowledge. Why? Because tibetan budddhism asserts enlightenment and buddhahood being aims of practice but both, enlightenment and buddhahood cannot be directly perceived. Thus there is no basis which would support the existence of enlightenment and buddhahood.
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  #34  
Old 09-08-2017, 08:47 AM
Jeremy Bong Jeremy Bong is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ground
Sorry but tibetan buddhism cannot be practiced based on valid knowledge. Why? Because tibetan budddhism asserts enlightenment and buddhahood being aims of practice but both, enlightenment and buddhahood cannot be directly perceived. Thus there is no basis which would support the existence of enlightenment and buddhahood.


If enlightenment and Buddhahood can't be directly perceived then it's not an authentic practice as you've insisting with the philosophy of Tibetan Buddhism teaching. And they're not aim for cessation of Samara. They aim for rebirth as Lama does. That's attachment.
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  #35  
Old 09-08-2017, 10:08 AM
Ground Ground is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Bong
If enlightenment and Buddhahood can't be directly perceived then it's not an authentic practice as you've insisting with the philosophy of Tibetan Buddhism teaching. And they're not aim for cessation of Samara. They aim for rebirth as Lama does. That's attachment.

Sorry but as to buddhism or buddha dhamma I am referring to pali kanon exlusively.

The logic of the Indian budddhist master Dharmkirti presented in the beginning of this thread is not a new or alternative dhamma but is a tool or template to be used to come to validly know for oneself the meaning of the pali kanon.
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  #36  
Old 09-08-2017, 10:35 AM
Jeremy Bong Jeremy Bong is offline
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Originally Posted by Ground
Sorry but as to buddhism or buddha dhamma I am referring to pali kanon exlusively.

The logic of the Indian budddhist master Dharmkirti presented in the beginning of this thread is not a new or alternative dhamma but is a tool or template to be used to come to validly know for oneself the meaning of the pali kanon.


That's once you said, directly perceived and then not to be directly perceived. That means you're both right and both are wrong. So where are you now?

Or you really don't know which one is right.
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  #37  
Old 09-08-2017, 10:38 AM
Ground Ground is offline
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Originally Posted by Jeremy Bong
That's once you said, directly perceived and then not to be directly perceived. That means you're both right and both are wrong. So where are you now?

"The success of all human aims is preceded by right cognition.

Right cognition is twofold: direct perception and inference."

Dharmakirti
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  #38  
Old 09-08-2017, 10:44 AM
Jeremy Bong Jeremy Bong is offline
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Originally Posted by Ground
"The success of all human aims is preceded by right cognition.

Right cognition is twofold: direct perception and inference."

Dharmakirti

This is only believed by Tibetan Buddhism teaching followers. But not all Buddhists. So it's not a universal truth and you're asking others to follow this concept. I think it's not a good idea. That's why almost all the people who responded to your post also disagreed with your right cognition from Tibetan Buddhism.
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  #39  
Old 09-08-2017, 10:51 AM
Ground Ground is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Bong
This is only believed by Tibetan Buddhism teaching followers. But not all Buddhists. So it's not a universal truth and you're asking others to follow this concept. I think it's not a good idea. That's why almost all the people who responded to your post also disagreed with your right cognition from Tibetan Buddhism.

This
Quote:
"Right cognition is twofold: direct perception and inference."
is not a belief but a common practice to attain valid knowledge both in buddhism and in science. But as a private believer you will of course obstinately reject rationality.
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  #40  
Old 09-08-2017, 11:06 AM
Jeremy Bong Jeremy Bong is offline
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Originally Posted by Ground
This

is not a belief but a common practice to attain valid knowledge both in buddhism and in science. But as a private believer you will of course obstinately reject rationality.

Einstein's explanation of answer: a question can have more than one right answer and many wrong answers so that's only Tibetan Buddhism teaching which is not profitable to other Buddhism teaching. That's why you are only following the wrong knowledge. They're so many events or facts that can't be directly perceived or right cognition. Sometimes facts or happenings are can't be seen by human or scientific test. Can you see Gods? Is it no Gods? But I can see then it's not no God.
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