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  #61  
Old 16-03-2019, 05:31 AM
JustBe JustBe is offline
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This is good.

I woke this morning after a restless night sleep only with enough energy to get myself to work. I was pondering what benefits meditation would aid me at this time of my life and process. I went back to a group meditation I did a few days prior, where a fire was burning for us to let go of something we might feel we had to let go of. I looked within myself and there was nothing left in me that felt it needed to let go of. The letting go to all others in me that created my earliest foundational sense of self was empty, I felt it. I felt clear.

So today’s waking and pondering made me wonder what purpose the meditation practice would serve in me, for me as myself now? I realize now in reading through your sharing, I will connect to myself. I will learn of the meditation practice as a way to understand my own inner workings and world, without the conditioned pain body needing to surrender. I will surrender to myself, I will learn and listen to my own body, I will understand and connect in ways deeper through this refinement of myself.

I may even sleep better...hehe

Your words are my answer as my answer in me understands.

Especially this part..”You practiced for some time, you are clear on the purpose of the purification, and clear that at this stage we train sensitivity of mind. You comprehend why we use nose/air feeling specifically. You have now seen for yourself and understand why we have no verbalisation or visualisation, or indeed, any fabrications of imagination. As a practitioner you know what you are doing and why, and you have experienced the initial beneficial effects, so now, no matter what the experts say, no matter you are ridiculed, no matter what - you are resolute within yourself and go forward under your very own steam. You are strong in your own determination, and you accept the responsibility of sangha, which also makes you ever more ardent.”-gem

So I’ve solved the mystery of my sleep deprivation. Today my realisation is that the most important time to meditate for myself is night. So that’s now my focus. My sleep state is processing the day. And being someone who is constantly immersed in others through my work and connections,this time is most important for me. It makes sense. I need to reset sleep to complete shut down. So the morning lends me to more aliveness and wakefulness.

Little realisations can be most profound for ones practice.
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  #62  
Old 16-03-2019, 10:30 AM
Gem Gem is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustBe
This is good.

I woke this morning after a restless night sleep only with enough energy to get myself to work. I was pondering what benefits meditation would aid me at this time of my life and process. I went back to a group meditation I did a few days prior, where a fire was burning for us to let go of something we might feel we had to let go of. I looked within myself and there was nothing left in me that felt it needed to let go of. The letting go to all others in me that created my earliest foundational sense of self was empty, I felt it. I felt clear.


It's popular in spiritual groups to have exercises of letting go, but it's not part of anapanasati or mindfulness generally because this meditation is ardent awareness, with understanding of impermanence, without clinging and aversion in the world.

Even though the satipatthana is the path of purification, and we have things in us left over from the past (which we call 'sankara'), we are detached in a way that if there is a content like trauma, grudge and so on, then we might see, sankara start rising in conscious awareness as emotional storms as thay have done before. The difference now is, this time they come up, but we are no longer adverse. It merely true 'this is an emotional storm' - we've removed the aversion reaction, resistance, dislike etc, which has been regenerating the issue from the time we were hurt up until now.

Instead we have 'constant and thorough understanding of impermanance', so we know it is inevitable the storm arisen will pass away. In the past, these storms show up a little bit, and we start reacting strongly (which is why its called trauma), and that reaction is also a desire that it should be other than it is. Then we get the idea that we have to let go, and thus get involved in the storm, generating adversity and craving.

That reactivity is what generated the sankara in the first place. Something very hurtful happened in the past and we had a very strong reaction to it, so it was chiseled deep into the mind of memory and emotional content. Every time it started to come up since then, we start reacting very adversely again, re-carving that rut, so even though the event itself is long past, we kept carving it deeper and deeper in.

In these exercises people are 'letting go', but it's the same adverse/craving behaviour. That old thing comes up, they react adveresly, "I don't like it. I want to be free of it. I have to let it go", so aversion is there along with the desire it should be otherwise, and the carving continues. Regenerating more sankara.

That's what we have stopped doing. We have "removed craving and aversion in the world". You look into yourself and whatever trauma or what we call sankara you contain, it's there. Simply true. Nothing to do.

With constant and thorough understanding impermanence you know its nature is temporal, so you don't react. Emotional storm rising - "This is emotional storm". It can be there. Its nature is anicca anicca anicca changing changing changing. You cease carving the rut, no longer generate sankara, so it arises as a storm in conscious awareness and you are aware of it passing, changing momentarily, dissolving, just like everything in the world.

In this way, no matter the mind has a huge store of old sankara, we don't worry or do anything like 'let go'. We merely cease reacting with clinging and aversion in the world. Thus we cease carving ruts and they start smoothing out according to natures way. Another way of thinking is, It's like a fire has a lot of wood on it, we stop adding new wood, and pretty soon all the wood burns away. Another example, we wind up the watch every day so it holds tension inside. It tick tocks and the tension is dissipating, but then we wind it up again and the tension is restored. We never unwind the watch ourselves. To unwind the watch you simply stop winding, and the tension inside dissipates on its own according to law of nature. Soon enough the tension in the springs runs out and the watch stops.

In mindfulness we are doing by ceasing to do, leaving nature to work its way. Breath is analogous to the bigger picture. The breath is not 'my breath'. 'I' do not control it. Breath is just happening naturally. No one is doing anything.

Quote:
So today’s waking and pondering made me wonder what purpose the meditation practice would serve in me, for me as myself now? I realize now in reading through your sharing, I will connect to myself. I will learn of the meditation practice as a way to understand my own inner workings and world, without the conditioned pain body needing to surrender. I will surrender to myself, I will learn and listen to my own body, I will understand and connect in ways deeper through this refinement of myself.

I may even sleep better...hehe


In my experience, and the experience of many people I meditated with, this approach of meditation tends to make people sleep less. The first thing is, we stopped doing anything so things start to become loose deep inside. We stopped tightening the knots that tie things down. You can see how it manifests in your tense leg. You are just watching air and tension rises, but you notice and cease generating it, and you don't know, but deep inside something starts loosening. We are without craving and aversion, so good or bad; pleasant or unpleasant is free to rise up into conscious awareness, everything is freeing up, and even if we don't know it because it just started, the deeper movement inside can keep us awake. Not because we are unsettled by it - actually we are more settled than before - but just because these 'loosenings' tend to keep people awake.

The second thing is, we stopped generating the tensions. We are just watching nature at it is and ceased the reactivity which 'winds up'. Less tensions so we don't need so much rest. If you lay awake and start to stress, 'I can't sleep. Tomorrow I'll be exhausted. OMG. It's 1am and I have to be up at 5'. Worrying like that is generating tension and it will exhaust you. Instead, If you find yourself unable to sleep, don't worry, lay in bed and practice anapanasati. You will be with reality of the air/nose sensation, and 11pm, 12am, 1,2,3am, no matter. You won't be exhausted the next day. You'll be surprisingly alert.

Quote:
Your words are my answer as my answer in me understands.

Especially this part..”You practiced for some time, you are clear on the purpose of the purification, and clear that at this stage we train sensitivity of mind. You comprehend why we use nose/air feeling specifically. You have now seen for yourself and understand why we have no verbalisation or visualisation, or indeed, any fabrications of imagination. As a practitioner you know what you are doing and why, and you have experienced the initial beneficial effects, so now, no matter what the experts say, no matter you are ridiculed, no matter what - you are resolute within yourself and go forward under your very own steam. You are strong in your own determination, and you accept the responsibility of sangha, which also makes you ever more ardent.”-gem


Yes, No one should follow. I'm not the expert, a teacher, have no 'self-imagery', special knowledge or any status of any kind. I talk about things and people shall not take what I say on authority, my authority, because what I said is like what a monk also said, because I quoted the satipatthana sutta, because it is what Buddha said. No. That mentality is stuck in dogma. I talk so much for so long so that people can be self-determined and everything they do in regards to this meditation is not following or in any way obedient.

Meditation needs people to be able to think for themselves. To be discerning. And there should be a sort of powerful feeling coming from deep inside, as empowered by one's own understanding, a vitality. This is a critical foundation (as per post#3) without which we are lost.
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  #63  
Old 16-03-2019, 11:06 PM
JustBe JustBe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
It's popular in spiritual groups to have exercises of letting go, but it's not part of anapanasati or mindfulness generally because this meditation is ardent awareness, with understanding of impermanence, without clinging and aversion in the world.

Even though the satipatthana is the path of purification, and we have things in us left over from the past (which we call 'sankara'), we are detached in a way that if there is a content like trauma, grudge and so on, then we might see, sankara start rising in conscious awareness as emotional storms as thay have done before. The difference now is, this time they come up, but we are no longer adverse. It merely true 'this is an emotional storm' - we've removed the aversion reaction, resistance, dislike etc, which has been regenerating the issue from the time we were hurt up until now.

Instead we have 'constant and thorough understanding of impermanance', so we know it is inevitable the storm arisen will pass away. In the past, these storms show up a little bit, and we start reacting strongly (which is why its called trauma), and that reaction is also a desire that it should be other than it is. Then we get the idea that we have to let go, and thus get involved in the storm, generating adversity and craving.

That reactivity is what generated the sankara in the first place. Something very hurtful happened in the past and we had a very strong reaction to it, so it was chiseled deep into the mind of memory and emotional content. Every time it started to come up since then, we start reacting very adversely again, re-carving that rut, so even though the event itself is long past, we kept carving it deeper and deeper in.

In these exercises people are 'letting go', but it's the same adverse/craving behaviour. That old thing comes up, they react adveresly, "I don't like it. I want to be free of it. I have to let it go", so aversion is there along with the desire it should be otherwise, and the carving continues. Regenerating more sankara.

That's what we have stopped doing. We have "removed craving and aversion in the world". You look into yourself and whatever trauma or what we call sankara you contain, it's there. Simply true. Nothing to do.

With constant and thorough understanding impermanence you know its nature is temporal, so you don't react. Emotional storm rising - "This is emotional storm". It can be there. Its nature is anicca anicca anicca changing changing changing. You cease carving the rut, no longer generate sankara, so it arises as a storm in conscious awareness and you are aware of it passing, changing momentarily, dissolving, just like everything in the world.

In this way, no matter the mind has a huge store of old sankara, we don't worry or do anything like 'let go'. We merely cease reacting with clinging and aversion in the world. Thus we cease carving ruts and they start smoothing out according to natures way. Another way of thinking is, It's like a fire has a lot of wood on it, we stop adding new wood, and pretty soon all the wood burns away. Another example, we wind up the watch every day so it holds tension inside. It tick tocks and the tension is dissipating, but then we wind it up again and the tension is restored. We never unwind the watch ourselves. To unwind the watch you simply stop winding, and the tension inside dissipates on its own according to law of nature. Soon enough the tension in the springs runs out and the watch stops.

In mindfulness we are doing by ceasing to do, leaving nature to work its way. Breath is analogous to the bigger picture. The breath is not 'my breath'. 'I' do not control it. Breath is just happening naturally. No one is doing anything.



In my experience, and the experience of many people I meditated with, this approach of meditation tends to make people sleep less. The first thing is, we stopped doing anything so things start to become loose deep inside. We stopped tightening the knots that tie things down. You can see how it manifests in your tense leg. You are just watching air and tension rises, but you notice and cease generating it, and you don't know, but deep inside something starts loosening. We are without craving and aversion, so good or bad; pleasant or unpleasant is free to rise up into conscious awareness, everything is freeing up, and even if we don't know it because it just started, the deeper movement inside can keep us awake. Not because we are unsettled by it - actually we are more settled than before - but just because these 'loosenings' tend to keep people awake.

The second thing is, we stopped generating the tensions. We are just watching nature at it is and ceased the reactivity which 'winds up'. Less tensions so we don't need so much rest. If you lay awake and start to stress, 'I can't sleep. Tomorrow I'll be exhausted. OMG. It's 1am and I have to be up at 5'. Worrying like that is generating tension and it will exhaust you. Instead, If you find yourself unable to sleep, don't worry, lay in bed and practice anapanasati. You will be with reality of the air/nose sensation, and 11pm, 12am, 1,2,3am, no matter. You won't be exhausted the next day. You'll be surprisingly alert.



Yes, No one should follow. I'm not the expert, a teacher, have no 'self-imagery', special knowledge or any status of any kind. I talk about things and people shall not take what I say on authority, my authority, because what I said is like what a monk also said, because I quoted the satipatthana sutta, because it is what Buddha said. No. That mentality is stuck in dogma. I talk so much for so long so that people can be self-determined and everything they do in regards to this meditation is not following or in any way obedient.

Meditation needs people to be able to think for themselves. To be discerning. And there should be a sort of powerful feeling coming from deep inside, as empowered by one's own understanding, a vitality. This is a critical foundation (as per post#3) without which we are lost.

That was very beneficial reading . Thank you.
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  #64  
Old 17-03-2019, 07:11 AM
Gem Gem is online now
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Hi Guys.

This post quotes a previously omitted part of the satipatthana's section on respiration, delves into the philosophy and translation, and ties the text into the lived experience of this meditation.

Earlier in the thread I omitted the part of the section on respiration which reads:
Feeling the whole body, I shall breathe in." "Feeling the whole body, I shall breathe out," thus he trains himself. "With the bodily activities calmed, I shall breathe in," thus he trains himself. "With the bodily activities calmed, I shall breathe out," thus he trains himself"

I omitted this section earlier because we were talking about observing the breath and I thought "feeling the whole body" would confuse people, like, 'Am I to feel the breath or feel the whole body?'. Indeed this is breath awareness and not whole body awareness.

Textual Translations

Some scholars have translated 'whole body' to mean 'the entire body of the breath': the entire length of the in breath, the pause where it turns around, and the entire length of the out breath. Of course that is what we are doing, so it is a practical, useful interpretation, but then the verse goes goes on to say, 'with the bodily activities calmed'. Then it's pretty obvious that 'feeling the whole body' in context with 'bodily activities calmed' just refers to the physical body, and when the sutta says 'body' it literally just means body.

Why would they first say one of the mindful objects is body and use the word 'body' throughout the section on body to mean body, and then use that same word to mean 'the whole of (the breath)'? It makes no sense, so I don't buy it. Some of the great teachers say this is what it means, but as we discussed, we do not believe on authority. We believe upon logic, if it adds up, if the reason is consistent, and the 'body of breath' interpretation does not fulfill those criteria!

Buddhist Knowledge

The completeness of knowledge is the direct experience, so the sutta should be meaningful in the experiential context, which is what this thread does, so you see it is true in yourself rather than blindly accepting what an authority says. This is your power of discernment and self-determination, and you can see very clearly that the 'body of breath' interpretation, although completely practical and useful, is not an accurate literal translation, because contextually, it is senseless.

What are the foundations of knowledge? 1) you hear the dhamma as dogma; 2) You analyse and intellectually comprehend the dhamma and; 3) you experience it for yourself and have your own true insight.

"Body" Just Means Body

Because we are practicing, and we know the purpose of the practice and where it is going next, and we have experienced that breath awareness is making us more conscious of, and sensitive to, sensations and tensions elsewhere in the body, we can see how the word 'body' in the satipatthana literally just means the body. However, even though the 'entire body of the breath' translation makes no sense contextually, and is an obvious mistranslation, it is absolutely perfect in the useful and practical sense.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tying The Sutta Into Actual Meditation Experience

What we really want to do on this thread is to tie the sutta in with the lived-experience of meditation practice, because when we do that, the meaning of the sutta is more profound than its literal translation.

Of course, we are feeling the entire duration of in/out breathing. It kinda goes without saying, right? But let me talk to you about the actual experience in anapanasati so you'll see how the literal translation of 'body' just mean the body.

Just Be has already explained it experientially, but she is not a Buddhist philosopher so she doesn't care what texts say. I get into the texts, but not as a linguist, rather, as to how it reflects the real-lived-experience of meditators. Just Be has so far mentioned body sensation including something in the jaw as well as tensions in the legs. It just so happens that I have the same tensions in the legs. During my meditation training this tension would recur over and over again.

I should use the leg tension as my example in this post, because it is my own experience, and I believe it is a common experience among meditators. Your own experience might be different, but directly relatable. The meaning I discuss is universal even though the manifestations of it are individually unique.

"Feeling The Whole Body"

First I should discuss "feeling the whole body". Actually, you intend to only feel breath, but because you sit and feel the breath sensation, you are also connected to body sensation generally. Hence, when you feel breath you become more acutely sensitive to what happens elsewhere in the body. So the sutta says "Feeling the whole body, I shall breathe in. Feeling the whole body, I shall breathe out"

This has to happen, because anapanasati uses subtle breath sensation to hone the mind's sensitivity so that you become sensitive to the whole body in preparation for the body awareness stages. Hence, in the translation Sky123 provided, it is worded, "I will breathe in sensitive to the entire body. I will breathe out sensitive to the entire body."

"With the bodily activities calmed"

Next is calming bodily activities. The 'body of breath' interpretation says you calm down your breathing - perfectly practical - but because the word 'body' simply means body, 'With the bodily activities calmed' only means calming the body. Relaxing. Simply that. But as Just Be described, and as it also is in my experience, tension in the legs creeps up unconsciously. In your case it might be another tension somewhere else. At some point, that tense sensation becomes strong enough to capture the attention - I notice it is tense, so I cease tensing. This means, while I am not mindful, there is tendency to unconsciously tense up my legs, but when I become mindful, I know it is tense and cease tensing. Hence ""With the bodily activities calmed, I shall breathe in. With the bodily activities calmed, I shall breathe out."

"Thus He Trains Himself"

Lastly, "Thus he trains himself". The 'body of breath' interpretation is simple, you train by feeling the entire duration of breath while calming down the breath. Useful and practical. The literal translation, 'body'=body, is extraordinarily nuanced and we'll go deep into that during the body awareness stages. For now I can say, because we generate that tension unconsciously it is not so simple as you just relax. Yes you relax, but later you notice the tension has come back unbeknownst to you. By practicing anapanasati we become conscious of that tendency, and each time we notice we have tensed it, we cease tension again. After a while we'll notice the tension sooner and relax it earlier. The time in tension will thus decrease, decrease, occur less frequently, and eventually not occur at all. "He trains thus" regards this sort of training. In this way, the words, "With the bodily activities calmed, I shall breathe (in and) out," thus he trains himself." apply to the actual experience and practice of anapanasati.

Conclusion

You only feel the nose/air sensation. The sensations elsewhere and tensions wherever they happen to arise will just occur to your conscious awareness. You are not moving the attention all about trying to find these tensions. You just observe the nose/air feeling.

I spoke a lot, but I have now quoted the previously omitted part of respiration according to the satipatthana sutta. There is only one more section on 'observing body in body', and there are still experiential aspects to cover as well as refinements to be made.

I hope those who are interested in the 'edgier' philosophy find what I say useful, and that meditators see how it directly pertains to their meditation experience. Acknowledgments to Just Be for explaining this from an experiential standpoint before, and to Sky123 for an alternatively worded interpretation. May the love of the universe shine upon us all and happiness fill our days.

Last edited by Gem : 17-03-2019 at 09:25 AM.
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  #65  
Old 17-03-2019, 10:02 AM
sky sky is offline
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Body amongst bodies.

When Buddha refers to experiencing the whole body he's talking about breath in its entirety, not the physical body...

There are many Suttas/Sutras explaining this, here's a few.


“I tell you that this–the in-and-out breath–is classed as a body among bodies, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on the body in and of itself–ardent, alert, and mindful.”
Ananda Sutra.



“Thus he lives contemplating the body [that is, the breath] in the body,…and he lives detached, and clings to nothing in the world. Thus also, monks, a monk lives contemplating the body in the body.”
Satipatthana Sutta.



“His mind gathers and settles inwardly, grows unified and centered. This is how a monk develops mindfulness immersed in the body.”
The Kayagata-sati Sutra.



Sometimes you can feel the whole body from top to bottom being suspended within the breath. Body within the body....
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  #66  
Old 18-03-2019, 12:20 AM
Gem Gem is online now
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Hi Guys.

After that foray into the 'edgy philosophy' , it's time to move past the rigours of intellect, but where the 'entire body of the breath' interpretation makes no sense literally, don't disband that interpretation, because it perfectly details how we maintain breath awareness for the entire duration of the in/out breathing.

The more likely and straight forward 'body'=body interpretation is a more nuanced reference to how anapanasati starts to bring greater body awareness to us through the sensation which we feel at the nose. It's not to discredit any interpretation or say one is right and the other wrong. It's to make the best use of both interpretations in the practical sense, and in the sense of a more nuanced intellectual understanding of the real-lived experience of anapanasati.

But now, with that brain dense philosophy being yesterday's news, today is about sitting on the meditation cushion with the reality of your lived experience as it pertains to your breath sensation.

From my perspective, everything directly pertaining to respiration in the satipatthana sutta has now been quoted and discussed, and there is only the last section which is about 'observe body in body' left. We talked about the body quite a lot, though, because the breath awareness has started to make us more sensitive to the body in general.

I will come back to quote that last passage about 'observe body in body' and discuss it, but for now, better keep practicing anapanasati without being distracted by other feelings in the body.

If you practiced this long, and the general air/nose feeling is fairly clearly felt even when the breath becomes light, then start refining your practice by feeling where the air touches the skin on some spot within that larger area - any place in the nostril, at the entrance of the nostrils, or under the nostrils - and hone in on the air sensation you feel in that place. At first the feeling there might be intermittent. For example, you might be able to feel the in breath but can't feel the out breath (or vice-versa), or you feel it there, but it comes and goes. This means the sensation there is subtle enough for the purpose of continuing to develop the mind's sensitivity.

Just keep noticing the air as it touches the spot, and when you can't feel it, no worries, just feel it when you can feel it and do your best to feel it more. After some days to a couple of weeks, you will be able to feel it more clearly and continuously...

The new smaller spot of breath sensation will start as intermittent and hard to feel especially when breathing is shallow and light, but day by day it will become clearer, and before too long it will become clear and distinct throughout the whole duration of in and out breathing, and you will know that your mind is becoming ever more sensitive in perception.

If you can't feel the air touching on the skin anywhere particular within the general nose area, then keep meditating with the general nose/air feeling, but be alert to the general feeling and see if you notice a particular touch on some spot within the area. Then, when you think it's time for you, start trying to feel the air in that particular spot where you can feel it touch on your skin within that general nose area.

If you just arrived at this thread, you can't just jump in at this later stage of the meditation. You'll have to go back to post #1, first establish the foundations, work through the thread, and if in your own discernment and estimation it seems logical and rational to you, start with the practice as per post #16. Please let me know if you started the practice (here or in PM), and make any comments or ask any questions you like.

Be happy, everyone.

Last edited by Gem : 18-03-2019 at 02:02 AM.
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  #67  
Old 10-04-2019, 04:28 AM
winter light winter light is offline
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Well this was a good experiment for me. In the end though I am still finding that meditation does not work for me. For lots of reasons. Just want to follow up on how it went. I actually only lasted a couple of days in the process but waited to see if things changed but they did not.

I did feel exactly the experiences you described and even saw some benefits the following day. The main problem is that I have very poor boundaries so once the energy started moving it kept going for days and started to cause stress. And for me this stress was not good because it takes all of my energy to keep my life coherent. When I go into stress my boundaries collapse further and spiral and hard to get back to normal because there is no longer a normal to get back to. This is not an acceptable outcome I can compromise with so I had to stop the process.

For me it seems better to keep the focus on my whole body centered on my heart as I breathe. It keeps me more grounded.

For this part:
Quote:
So the sutta says "Feeling the whole body, I shall breathe in. Feeling the whole body, I shall breathe out"

I wonder if the meaning could be confused. Because it seems to imply that one narrates to ones self. It is not a narration but more of an awareness of what one is doing. You can describe it that way but it is not like narration.

Anyhow thanks for the instructions. There is a lot of good reference here to study and learn from and apply in my own ways.
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Old 10-04-2019, 04:39 AM
janielee
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Hi winter light,

This is Gem's thread and I am not following it in detail, but I wanted to offer a couple of thoughts.

Firstly, I really respect your presence and words here on this forum. Thank you.

Second, I do not know what practice you are following specifically but:

a) Take good care of yourself
b) In my practice, we sit merely observing or counting the breath. We are not so particular on the finiteness of details, as this can cause over thinking, in some ways, a natural flow works in my experience
c) There are many detailed Sutras. I agree with you that it is not a narration - the whole practice is geared towards self-awareness - awareness of self, awareness of that which moves.

The breath is a core anchor and taught in most Buddhist traditions. Its core basis is shamatha (stability) - over time, shamatha gives rise to insight (vipassana).

d) If there are feelings of discomfort, do not push them away, let them come, breath into them, and let them go. Do not fear the discomfort - but you know yourself best. Take care of yourself.
e) The practice is not an overnight thing - it is a long process - like watering a plant. You plant the seed, and each day do a little watering. Then the rest of the day just enjoy yourself, and little by little, the plant will grow.

f) Generally the focus of attention can be in the hara (abdomen), the mudra (if you use one), it can be just at the tip of the nose etc.

Again, I am no expert, and in addition, this is a forum so we cannot give you the fullest advice or assistance, but we are here for you as friends and companions.

I am sure Gem will have more precise words for your situation.

Very best wishes.

Namaste,

JL
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Old 10-04-2019, 07:24 AM
sky sky is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winter light
Well this was a good experiment for me. In the end though I am still finding that meditation does not work for me. For lots of reasons. Just want to follow up on how it went. I actually only lasted a couple of days in the process but waited to see if things changed but they did not.

I did feel exactly the experiences you described and even saw some benefits the following day. The main problem is that I have very poor boundaries so once the energy started moving it kept going for days and started to cause stress. And for me this stress was not good because it takes all of my energy to keep my life coherent. When I go into stress my boundaries collapse further and spiral and hard to get back to normal because there is no longer a normal to get back to. This is not an acceptable outcome I can compromise with so I had to stop the process.

For me it seems better to keep the focus on my whole body centered on my heart as I breathe. It keeps me more grounded.

For this part:


I wonder if the meaning could be confused. Because it seems to imply that one narrates to ones self. It is not a narration but more of an awareness of what one is doing. You can describe it that way but it is not like narration.

Anyhow thanks for the instructions. There is a lot of good reference here to study and learn from and apply in my own ways.



' For me it seems better to keep the focus on my whole body centered on my heart as I breathe. It keeps me more grounded.'


Good advice from JL.
If you find it helps to focus on your whole body as you breathe then I would continue doing so. Remember Buddha's Teachings are not rule books rather guide books

Buddha taught that we have a ' Body in a Body ' a breath body and a flesh body. Your obviously feeling this and I would I would continue like you said to apply it in your way.
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Old 10-04-2019, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winter light
Well this was a good experiment for me. In the end though I am still finding that meditation does not work for me. For lots of reasons. Just want to follow up on how it went. I actually only lasted a couple of days in the process but waited to see if things changed but they did not.

I did feel exactly the experiences you described and even saw some benefits the following day. The main problem is that I have very poor boundaries so once the energy started moving it kept going for days and started to cause stress. And for me this stress was not good because it takes all of my energy to keep my life coherent. When I go into stress my boundaries collapse further and spiral and hard to get back to normal because there is no longer a normal to get back to. This is not an acceptable outcome I can compromise with so I had to stop the process.

For me it seems better to keep the focus on my whole body centered on my heart as I breathe. It keeps me more grounded.

For this part:

I wonder if the meaning could be confused. Because it seems to imply that one narrates to ones self. It is not a narration but more of an awareness of what one is doing. You can describe it that way but it is not like narration.

Anyhow thanks for the instructions. There is a lot of good reference here to study and learn from and apply in my own ways.




Right, there is no narration, and it does mean awareness of, or directly experiencing. It is clarified repeatedly in the sutta as 'mere awareness'.


I'm sure if you prefer to to place attention on the body/heart as you say, that's ok and for the best, and if aspects of the method described in this thread are applicable, all the better.


The meditation I have described in this thread... I know from my own experience (and that of the many I have meditated with) there comes a mixture of things and almost always feelings of stress, and as you say, incoherence. I earlier discussed the psychological effects, and the importance of taking great care and delicacy, and being gentle with yourself - so I can only reiterate that now.


I will come back later and talk about these things, because what you have said is near enough always experienced when people undertake this kind of meditation. It is a difficult process... for sure. I also experienced difficult emotions which I described earlier on as well.



I'm so happy that you have joined us here, and you can be confident that our small sangha here has only love and kindness for you in our hearts.
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