The ethical impact of eating Eggs?

[Sapphirez]

I think that learning the "secrets" of how to ideally live as a human here on this planet is a large part of our purpose here.. to live harmoniously and prosperously with ourselves, and also with the other species, things, and phenomena here. In order to be our highest selves and evolve in the best directions it's important that we honor the Earth, ourselves and maintain a reasonable level of purity. There are a lot of ways to learn and grow in life and on this planet without sinning and harming ourselves, or others, which it's important to remember us harming ourselves often hurts others.



Gem lol about Easter.. it has to do with a Pagan holiday and Ishtar I believe, if you weren't already aware.

It has to do with what kind of cholesterol, because that from an animal product is far different than what is good for the body, which you apparently are aware of because you mention we don't need 'dietary cholesterol'. The body makes cholesterol and uses it as one of its main antacids, so it's not necessarily a bad thing.. but of course if you're healthy and don't have too much acidity that needs countering, you don't need excess circulation of cholesterol, and getting it from an outside source like an animal product is not going to help the situation. Cholesterol is involved with hormone production and other bodily functions too. Far too little about the reality of this substance is taught to people and I can't claim to know everything about it either of course, but I do know that it isn't what most people think, and that the types vary by source or why it's created.

The main thing to consider with the unhealthiness of eggs is the acidic ash they create in the body, moreso when cooked, the globulation that creates internally, and what exactly the proteins and hormones present in the egg do to the human body and brain.



That is worth considering about the prison program, but while I don't have data on individual or other group cases of inmates involved in the other activities you mentioned, I must say that tons of prisoners all over take part in bible studies, occupational training, and anger management. I wouldn't argue that there are not many ways to reform and help a person improve their behavior and selves. I certainly believe that a multipronged approach is generally the best. But I also like to get to the root of issues, and a person healing their bodies and brains and everything that goes along with that has a profound impact. It's said that detoxifying the body helps one to also purge negative emotions and even memories that have been held onto detrimentally. and I don't see any reason we should doubt this. Purifying the body has so many benefits and branches out to endless areas of life and self. and it can't be done by consuming animals or their various products that were created for them

[Debrah]

Originally Posted by inavalan

Hens will lay eggs regardless of whether or not they are being kept in the company of a rooster. The hen's body is naturally intended to produce an egg once every 24 to 27 hours, and it will form the egg regardless of whether the egg is actively fertilized during its formation. A hen's egg will be edible regardless of whether it has been fertilized.

Chickens have been 'manipulated' to produce an egg every 24 hours. Which other species of bird ovulates every day? Chickens as we know them today are not a natural species.

[Debrah]

Originally Posted by Feather

Exactly.. which is why I raised my question. It's meant to serve an ethical discussion, not just observe what the norm is..
And ethically, I argue in favour of eggs since it can be harmless and environmentally sound.

Your 'ethics' list doesn't seem to include the harm that is done to the chickens, the chicks or the environment.

For the sake of meat, dairy and eggs, hundreds of millions of acres of soy and corn are grown to feed cows, pigs, chickens, etc. Fossil fuels from the millions of trucks, tractors, combines, harvesters, etc., pollute the environment. And those fields are fertilized, sprayed with pesticides and herbicides, all of which eventually make their way to the rivers then oceans and the result is dying oceans.

The hens who lay the eggs originated in hatcheries that saw 50% of the chicks, ground up alive. The remaining hen chicks had their tiny pink beak tips seared off by a hot knife. As adults, in battery cages, those hens live on a space the size of my laptop and 6 to a tiny cage.

When their laying drops, they're often starved for up to two weeks as it seems to spur their systems back into action and they lay a little more before they are finally sent to slaughter no matter how cold or how hot the weather. Whole loads can arrive at the slaughterhouse, frozen solid in winter.

Free run eggs never means the chickens have happy lives. It means that for a full size barn (1000 plus birds), if they have one small door that leads outside occasionally, that's considered free range (because they aren't in a tiny cage). And apparently, most birds don't venture out anyway, because they can't get to that little door and that because they aren't used to it, they're afraid to even take a chance on leaving the place they're familiar with. The birds are still crammed into filthy barns with other bored birds and nothing to do.

Eggs are not ethical. Even if you buy a couple of chicks from the feed store and give them a great life, their brothers still got ground up alive so that you could buy two hens.

[Altair]

Ha Debrah.. good to see you back here..

We have to disagree on this matter, and that's okay with me. You see, I don't support the mass consumption of eggs that you refer to. I am thinking of small scale chicken farming and garden chickens, which really aren't unsustainable, especially not if the chickens are fed with seeds (and not soy beans!)..

You mention how buying a chicken pet makes their brothers still going to be slaughtered, but that is a choice of both farmer and consumer (that buy chicken meat). The farmer could find another purpose for the roosters, or the person wanting chickens pets may also buy the rooster, etc. There are many possibilities. If we buy milk we also say we support milk consumption, not slaughter of bulls. It's a consequence of the modern technology that bulls are no longer used in the fields! This is NOT the fault of milk consumers! In India they just release the bulls. Not ideal either, but the key is.. buying milk or eggs does not mean you support slaughter of male animals. Technology and farmer's choices are responsible for that. Why don't they find a purpose for their roosters and bulls..??

And if eggs are consumed, or if roosters are separated from the hens, there won't be a surplus of chickens. True, it's not perfect and we need to figure out how this can be done better. The same applies to cows and milk consumption..

I know you're a vegan and we just aren't going to agree on these things, and that is okay. I see a purpose for chickens in gardens and for cows in the grasslands here, fed on diets free of soy beans. I disagree that eggs can't be ethical. I've seen it myself, it can be done..

[Sapphirez]

Feather I think that logic is entirely faulty that it's not the consumer's fault if bad things happen to create the product they choose to consume.. in a sense it's just the same as a meat eater saying it's not their fault that the animal was murdered (or tortured) to become their meal. because if that is the way the industry goes, and the industry exists for the consumers, IF there were not consumers choosing to consume from it, there would be no reason for the industry to exist and do as it does.. If there are consumers consuming from it, then business goes on as usual and you have what you have.. You can't just take yourself out of the equation of fault just because you don't do the dirty work yourself or have full knowledge of what exactly happens... If you're paying for it and it happens Because people paid for it, you're in the equation and share the blame. whether you wanna or not.. I guess that is why people deciding to stop eating animals or their products often expose themselves to animal cruelty and reality videos of what actually goes on, to increase their consciousness and become aware of what they're really taking part in or causing. I know I did, and didn't become vegan right away but I kept increasing my consciousness and awareness, of what happens to the animals, and also what happens to the humans when they consume these substances which aren't designed for their consumption anyways and the consequences on both ends are important to consider because humans are victims of eating animals and their babies' products. A lot less people would die or be sick if they didn't eat it but I know that it's a tough task to convince a non-vegan and even many vegans that these actually aren't healthy foods, or foods meant for us at all. it is common sense though too... I'm not trying to be rude but choosing to move from vegetarian to vegan requires an elevation of consciousness and thoughtfulness.. If you really thought it through you couldn't justify it, and really I only say this now because at the end of your post you bring up veganism as the reason Debrah can't see things your way. as if it's a mark against her or something.. not every vegan is necessarily going to check all the ideal boxes, not all of them care about animals or have put a lot of thought and research and energy into understanding the truth.. some just don't feel good when eating animals or what ever other reasons I don't know.. but the way you put it and the holes in your post's logic makes me conclude that there is a big difference between *most* vegetarians and vegans and how much consciousness each has given the matters.


lol I did think of a purpose for all those poor baby chicks once.. I hatched a plan to offer to cheaply buy up or even get paid to take the excess male chicks off their hands, and then when the chicks became roosters we'd take armies of them and march up to the white house (or somewhere else that'd have a bigger impact) and wake up the government and uh fill in the blanks then somehow save the world.. I'm sure the bulls would be a welcome addition


anywayyy I think Debrah brought up some good points.. I do think that small scale family farms or backyard chickens (which was actually still a normal thing in the first half of the 20th century in the U.S.) are a different story, but again Feather nowhere in your fowl farm fantasy did you yourself say you had room for a bunch of roosters, so later in your post when you query why don't "they" find a purpose for them well why didn't you?

but either way, eggs and cow's products designed for their calves are not healthy for humans, cuz they're not made for us. so even if it was potentially ethical, it's not ethical toward the humans that get sickened and diseased and brain-damaged by consuming these things.. In conclusion I'll just say I really am sorry if my post is offensive. that's not my intention but this is a touchy topic

[Altair]

It's entirely the farmer's choice to get rid of male animals. They could use the bulls to work the fields, or sell roosters as pets. Whatever they may wish to do or not do, it doesn't change that producing milk or eggs, while there can be issues (especially in intensive, unorganic animal farms, which I don't support anyway), this isn't the same everywhere. Modern farming technology has increased the violence..

I've talked about this many times with vegans. They just don't see it. Similarly, I point out that cows in the fields can be of ecological benefit in many European places. Many fields, especially along the coastal line in my country were originally salt marshes. That is gone now for hundreds and hundreds of years. The best ecological alternative is to have the cows graze outside and farm organically. Flowers will grow, cows will poo, insects come, and many grassland birds. Yes, there are still cows slaughtered in the process, which is a practice perpetuated by modern farming as well as meat eaters, not dairy eaters. This is a choice (!)..

Same way one can just get chickens if one has a garden, and take eggs but not slaughter the chickens. If you form a little network in your neighbourhood you could even keep that gene pool alive without relying on the farmers that do slaughter other chickens. There are decentralized solutions here if we are creative. Solutions that don't require one to be vegan..

So there's a bit more to this than farm animal ethics and getting rid of all animal agriculture. The argument vegans make could be applied to so many other topics you couldn't eat anything any more. Or what about adopting kids? Doesn't that validate the practice of parents selling their children..?!

It's okay if you disagree though.. :)

[Altair]

Originally Posted by Sapphirez

but either way, eggs and cow's products designed for their calves are not healthy for humans, cuz they're not made for us. so even if it was potentially ethical, it's not ethical toward the humans that get sickened and diseased and brain-damaged by consuming these things.. In conclusion I'll just say I really am sorry if my post is offensive. that's not my intention but this is a touchy topic

Yes, eggs and cow's milk aren't ''designed'' for us, because there's not really a design..
However, we can still get nutrients from them so lets skip the nature fallacy stuff. Not everyone is lactose intolerant for instance..

Anyways. Vegetarianism has been done for thousands of years. We don't yet know the long term impacts of a vegan diet, because the group is small. I will wait and see, and feel no pressure or desire to be a vegan myself. Having said that, I respect your choice..

[Sapphirez]

they're nature's design and nature designed them for a specific purpose, not specifically to feed us ideally.. the result is toxicity and disease. not everyone is technically lactose intolerant, just like not everyone is technically gluten intolerant or a celiac, but gluten is a toxin to us and so is milk made for Other species. there's a reason the body stops making lactase in abundance at a certain age. If people were drinking human milk it would be a different story because human milk is designed for humans, not cows. the lactose in any species' milk isn't even the main thing to consider. Look at a calf and how it grows and a human infant and it's obvious that the things that the cow's milk make for the calves are not going to have such a pleasant effect on us. there are different hormones and all sorts of things meant just for baby cows.. the rest that the human body can't use has to be dealt with by the lymphatic system as toxic waste, which is where diseases and disorders begin. skip the nature fallacy stuff? well you can get nutrients by eating a nail but I don't see you doing that, because it isn't logical to eat something just because you *can* get nutrients from it. that is the whole point.. when you get your nutrients, what are the consequences on the body (and being) with all the rest that comes with them? and consequently how well can the body really utilize those nutrients and subsequent nutrients it's given if it is damaged by the other constituents of the package containing the nutrients? This doesn't take into consideration the brain and nerve damage caused by consuming things God didn't make for us


for the record I am not really a "vegan" right now I am a veganinja. I abstain from most things that involve animal cruelty because why would I want to partake in that and I don't need to, etc.. but for instance I am not against honey because unlike eggs or other animals' babies milk it is a potentially very valuable nourishing substance with medicinal properties and not a bunch of side effects that are toxic.. of course ideally the honey would come from bees that are not abused or killed, etc.. but it's possible to get honey from bees without causing them a bunch of harm and there's extra to go around.. again though, honey is actually reasonably good for humans, whereas even if you could ethically get eggs from chickens without killing all their male heirs or raising them in harsh conditions, etc. the egg consumption is ethically unsound when it comes to the detrimental effect it has on humans.. I don't like the idea of wearing other animals' fur (wool is a different story because sheep need not be abused or killed to get it, not that I have a bunch of wool anyway but it's not the same as a mink stole or something) or leather and so on.. not because it's in a vegan handbook I follow but because it doesn't make good sense to me and I think the idea of wearing a cow's skin is "yucky"... I do respect Native American culture and a lot of their practices, but I think they were wrong about their use of animals, even if it was done sacredly.. and I actually think they wouldn't have been so susceptible to the diseases and illness they were if they had a sounder diet.. I know they were generally very strong, and about migration and all those sorts of things (I took a few Native American classes that were compelling and informative, taught by Native Americans) but they could have been stronger and had more capable immune systems and all that had their habits discluding dead animals and such.. but that's deviating off the topic I guess. another slight deviation, by veganinja I also mean that I don't consume a lot of things that many vegans do, like gluten, soy, white sugar, artificial flavors and colors and you get the picture..



What I think is important for you to understand is that you can't just put blame for the industry you consume from on those that actually eat the dead animals or do the actual farming.. that's a cop-out to say the least.
IF you did not consume the milk from the cows, there would not be cows raised for milk and all that evil connected stuff simply wouldn't occur. You cannot just pretend you're not a part of the equation because you don't feel like it, don't raise the cows yourself and have to personally deal with everything involved in that.. Even if there was still a meat industry, if no humans wanted to drink their milk, then the cows would be free to feed their milk to their baby calves and there'd be no need to produce it for humans.. I mean seriously, they literally take the milk from the babies and give it to you.. and you want to believe you have nothing to do with it.. everything else associated with it including the cruelty and mass murder has your name on it too.. why buy the cow if you can drink its milk for free? You pay a price for the milk, but nothing reflecting the true price..... sorry but you can't pretend your hands are clean because even if you don't squeeze the udders or repeatedly impregnate the cow so it can keep producing milk or hold the cleaver or tools to dehorn or castrate etc etc the animal it doesn't mean it isn't happening specifically because people like you pay for them to do it as they do

[Altair]

There is no such thing as 'design', Sapphirez. We've been over this in another thread. And yes, some people have allergies, others don't. I don't think you have a good grasp of how evolution works. You seem to have a very fixed idea about diet, yet humans are opportunists that can thrive on different diets. Whether veganism is among them, in the long run, remains to be seen..

However, what this thread is about is ethics, not what fixed state you think nature ought to be. Chickens and cows are specifically bred over generations to produce eggs and milk. In the case of cows we're actually doing them a benefit by taking the milk. A cow produces more milk than a calf can take. We can either take care of these animals and look for ways to prevent slaughter, or we can all become vegans. I am clearly the former and you are the latter. Buying eggs or milk means just that, supporting egg taking and milking cows. The fact that technology has improved to make bulls redundant is irrelevant to that discussion. Throughout most of history they were used as beasts of burden. Modern farming tech replaced them and this isn't my invention..

You may want to look into organic farming and how beneficial grazing cows can be in some landscapes. If all farmers here did that, and didn't spray the fields, we'd be really helping the insects and the endangered grassland birds. As for chickens, there are solutions there too. To vegans though it's an all-or-nothing game, with no in-betweens..

[Lucky 1]

.........enjoying my scrambled eggs and oatmeal this morning!