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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Religions & Faiths > Christianity

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  #21  
Old 15-03-2018, 08:13 PM
weareunity weareunity is offline
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Hello Morpheus.

My actual name is pete and weareunity is the username I use- an expression of a personal perspective. If such is not permitted on this forum I regret that I was not aware of this being so. Good wishes. petex
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  #22  
Old 16-03-2019, 07:15 PM
Gideon2037 Gideon2037 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tobi
Good thread....but I moved it. To the Christian section. I think it may be mis-placed in the Judaism section?


Honestly I believe this belongs in the Judaism thread simply because my overall thesis was that this is what made Jesus a shining example of a Jew and the beauty and seemingly endless history of the Jewish faith.

And that Jesus was actually trying revive some of the oldest Jewish/Essene practices, and not "tear down the temple and rebuild it as the new king" But simply prove that gods love and the beauty of his faith can exist beyond the corruption amongst the Jewish priests/the money lenders. As all religions are susceptible to stray in such a direction. To prove that god all around us and we can connect to him more through nature than through lavish temples.

I feel people might be more open to the suggestion here. The philosophical mind is comforted and encouraged in Judaism, but only in my limited experience.
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  #23  
Old 16-03-2019, 08:35 PM
ImthatIm
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Here is a text on Jesus and him possibly being an Essene.
I am not validating this piece but just stumbled on it the other day so just passing it on.
Quote:
Jesus An Essene, by E. Planta Nesbit, [1895]

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/jae/jae03.htm

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  #24  
Old 17-03-2019, 12:13 AM
Gideon2037 Gideon2037 is offline
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Thank you so much, I'm finding more and more about this and it is fascinating, even though as you say, and it is important to say, that it doesn't necessarily prove anything. Though the histories recorded by Josephus on the Essenes alone is pretty fascinating. Thanks for this.
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  #25  
Old 17-03-2019, 09:12 PM
TheGlow TheGlow is offline
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Just curious but what else would he have been but a Jew.
There were no Christians so he wasn't that.

I had always been told he was a Jew, later learned part of the Essene.
Just innocently asking, what were the other possibilities?
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  #26  
Old 18-03-2019, 01:08 AM
django django is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ImthatIm
Here is a text on Jesus and him possibly being an Essene.
I am not validating this piece but just stumbled on it the other day so just passing it on.


http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/jae/jae03.htm


Thanks for this link ImthatIm, very interesting

It is a very persuasive essay on the similarities between Jesus's teaching and the Essenes, it helps me to make sense of some of the Jesus message which I have never understood such as leaving behind all family, leaving the dead to bury the dead, why Jesus wasn't married like any 'normal' Jewish man, why he was so pro-poverty, baptism and why he was baptised by John, and what the 'secret' knowledge was, given only to his inner circle - Essene philosophy.

And thankyou Gideon for posting this topic, it is something I'd like to look into further, it seems to hold a lot of promise in understanding Jesus the Jewish man of the 1st century CE. I'd love to now read some literature about the essenes and see if I can see the message of Jesus in their writings, from an unbiased perspective.

Last edited by django : 18-03-2019 at 03:09 AM.
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  #27  
Old 18-03-2019, 03:56 AM
janielee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gideon2037
Honestly I believe this belongs in the Judaism thread simply because my overall thesis was that this is what made Jesus a shining example of a Jew and the beauty and seemingly endless history of the Jewish faith.

And that Jesus was actually trying revive some of the oldest Jewish/Essene practices, and not "tear down the temple and rebuild it as the new king" But simply prove that gods love and the beauty of his faith can exist beyond the corruption amongst the Jewish priests/the money lenders. As all religions are susceptible to stray in such a direction. To prove that god all around us and we can connect to him more through nature than through lavish temples.

I feel people might be more open to the suggestion here. The philosophical mind is comforted and encouraged in Judaism, but only in my limited experience.

That's an important point.

JL
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  #28  
Old 18-03-2019, 08:23 AM
django django is offline
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I looked into it today and I found that there are some very intriguing similarities, but in the end it might be that there are even more differences between Jesus and the Essenes. I would be interested in a response to the position quoted below.

"The very few scholars who take the idea that Jesus was an Essene seriously put their focus on a few minor similarities. Like Jesus, the Essenes seem to have expected a coming apocalyptic intervention by God.

They - or at least some of them - seem to have practised celibacy and Jesus is depicted as praising celibacy and was most likely celibate himself. [My example - “Not everyone can accept this word,” He replied, “but only those to whom it has been given. 12For there are eunuchs who were born that way; others were made that way by men; and still others live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”]

Some of the language used in the Dead Sea Scrolls that are usually (though not universally) attributed to the Essenes is similar to that used in the gospels, with references to "the Light" and "the Way" etc. [My example - John 12:36 While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of light." After Jesus had spoken these things, He went away and was hidden from them.]

The Essenes had communities in towns, but at least some seem to have lived in monastic-style communes in the Judean desert and Jesus is also depicted as withdrawing to pray and fast in the desert for a while at the very beginning of his career.

But do these similarities indicate that he was an Essene? Not if you also look at the many things about Jesus and his sect which was totally different to what we know about the Essenes.

The Essenes were obsessive about ritual purity and had elaborate cleansing and washing rituals if any of them was physically or ritually contaminated in various ways. Jesus, on the other hand, is depicted as being blithely uncaring about things that more severe Jewish sects of the time regarded as "unclean". He is depicted being near dead bodies, touching lepers and eating and drinking with prostitutes and tax collectors. These things are said to have scandalised other devout Jews, but the Essenes would have found them profoundly abhorrent.

Josephus makes a point of noting that they were obsessive about keeping the Sabbath, saying they were "against applying themselves to labours on the seventh day, even more than all other Judeans" and detailing the lengths they go to so as to not break the Sabbath by any form of physical activity, including not even relieving themselves all day. Jesus, on the other hand, was depicted as breaking the Sabbath when it was convenient and saying in response to disapproval about this "the Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath". This statement would have been blasphemy for an Essene.

Josephus stresses how ascetic the Essene way of life was, emphasising "their continuous sobriety and the rationing of food and drink among them". Jesus, on the other hand, is depicted as enjoying food and wine and even talks about his enemies calling him a glutton and a drunkard. Again, this sounds nothing like an Essene.

And so the differences go on. Essenes lived in communities with a strict hierarchy and rigid rules and routines of ritual and study. Jesus and his followers did not. Essenes undertook a years long period of novice status before they were counted as full members of the sect. Jesus is depicted as simply saying "follow me" and the follower was suddenly part of his group. The Essenes wore special white robes and carried ritual items that marked them as part of the sect. Jesus' group did none of these things.

The few similarities are therefore far outweighed by the differences. And the similarities are not even close enough to indicate influence by the Essenes, let alone members of the sect. Yes, both the Essenes and the Jesus sect expected a coming apocalypse. But this was a common belief amongst many Jews and Jewish groups and so not evidence of anything other than a shared religio-cultural context. The same goes for some of the shared religious language of the time. Celibacy was another common practice amongst Jewish holy men of all kinds and was not restricted to the Essenes. The same goes for withdrawal to and contemplation in the desert. Josephus says he spent some time in the desert with a hermit called Bannus when he was younger and it seems this practice was common for more devout men at the time as well.

So the few similarities do not indicate that Jesus was an Essene and the many and stark differences between how he is depicted and what we know of the Essenes make this idea highly unlikely. There is a possibility that he may have been somewhat influenced by them, but none of the New Testament even mentions them and there is little evidence they were well known or even known at all as far north as Galilee, where Jesus spent almost all of his life."


It's also true that the Essenes are rarely mentioned by Jesus, maybe a reference or two all up, it would require some sort of conspiracy theory to account for this lack of them being mentioned if he was an Essene.

It's odd though, his statement in John 12:36 "While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of light" which is Essene language.

Other options, he was taught by Essenes for a period of time, or his parents were community living essenes, or he was an Essene rebel. But apparently John the Baptist didn't fit the mould of Essene either, he wore non-essene clothes, and had contact with 'sinners'.

Do we focus on the similarities or the differences???
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  #29  
Old 19-03-2019, 04:19 AM
Miss Hepburn Miss Hepburn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by django
I looked into it today and I found that there are some very intriguing similarities,
but in the end it might be that there are even more differences between Jesus and the Essenes.
I would be interested in a response to the position quoted below.
.
.
.


Do we focus on the similarities or the differences???
Excellent research.
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Prepare yourself for the coming astral journey of death by daily riding in the balloon of God-perception.
Through delusion you are perceiving yourself as a bundle of flesh and bones, which at best is a nest of troubles.
Meditate unceasingly, that you may quickly behold yourself as the Infinite Essence, free from every form of misery. ~Paramahansa's Guru's Guru
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  #30  
Old 19-03-2019, 04:53 PM
Morpheus Morpheus is offline
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"John came baptising in the wilderness...
'Turn away from your sins, and be baptised, and God will forgive your sins. ' "
Mark 1:4

John had said to Jesus, "I have need to be baptised by you!"
Jesus responded, "Let us accomplish this so that all things may be fulfilled."
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We are in eternity now." - Norman Vincent Peale

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