What is consciousness and in which forms can it appear?

[quote=Siemens]

Originally Posted by ketzer
Without something to perceive, whether it be form, thought, or emotion, or even formlessness, then we would lose the ability to be conscious of the fact that we exist.

Originally Posted by Siemens

Would we only lose “the ability to be conscious of the fact that we exist”, if we had nothing to perceive and feel – or would we lose the ability to be conscious in general?
Can consciousness realize, manifest, or experience itself in a form other than feeling, perception or thought? Is it possible to experience something consciously that isn’t feeling, perception or thought?

Perhaps the most likely answer is that I am not qualified to answer the question, but I have never let that stop me before (but at least I am not one of those people on amazon who chimes in to review products they don’t own and have never seen, what's up with that?). If I did not know I exist, then I suppose if consciousness were experiencing something, I would not be there to ascribe it to me…….but, there could still “be” awareness of it ….but now we have lost the we whose consciousness we are questioning. So I suppose the answer is “don’t ask me, I wasn’t there.” As far as the “it” goes, I am comfortable taking away feelings and thoughts as I think you indicated, perception precedes them, but I can’t think of anything to add in. Take perception away and I don’t see what is left except the word consciousness. A noun defined by a verb(s), but if the verb is never realized, does the noun exist? On the other hand, does consciousness require the awareness of an I to be consciousness? If experience is all that is needed, then we are stuck with the question what counts as “experience”? Does the rock “experience” the blow of the hammer ….even if it is not aware that it exists? It would not feel (as in emotions), think, or perceive the blow. IDK, but at least we established that contrary to the opinion of some (many?) my head is not made of solid rock, as it would really **** me off. However, I could be a dog, as I have this strong urge to tilt my head and just stare at this question.


Originally Posted by ketzer
So sorry, not only can I not add anything to your list, but I am afraid I would probably take them all away and leave only a question behind.

Originally Posted by Siemens

Maybe there is nothing more to add. How could you take something away?

IDK, after thinking about it, perhaps I just have difficulties coloring within the lines. Perhaps the only way I could take them away is by taking you away, and then they would go with you. But that is not the question you are asking. The short answer is that I don’t know. So rather than dwell on that, let's just agree to change the subject back to whether or not consciousness can exist without any of those three (or perhaps other verbs going on). Good. The existence of consciousness seems to me to imply an act (feeling, thinking, perceiving, … ?yodeling?), without which, there is not consciousness. Yet when we wake up in the morning, and get busy doing those things, there is consciousness. When we are asleep and not dreaming, is there consciousness? If not, then how does it return with awareness in the morning, and just what is “it” that is this ephemerald thing that keeps picking up and dropping the knowledge of “its” own existence? And so back we are with consciousness seeming to be a verb rather than a noun. We are left with the same mysterious “hard question(s)”, what, where, who, how, and even when, is this subject perceiving all these objects, one of which, or perhaps all of which, is itself. Perhaps we are just one out of infinitely many eyes that God occasionally uses to peer into itself …….or perhaps they legalized weed in my state.

It's a mind bender alright, and I can’t even figure out whose mind is being bent.
You see what you made me do! I pulled on one thread, and the whole damn shirt unraveled! And now it seems that the shirt was covering up the invisible man.
Great, I hope you are happy with yourself.

[Siemens]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

Consciousness is a self-aware energy/vibration which can arrange itself into any form or function it so chooses, from a rock (in all its rock-ness) to a human being (in all its humanity).

I also think that consciousness is vibration. You talk about the form a being can take. But I’m interested in how a conscious being can EXPERIENCE consciousness. I gave a list of three. Is everything that can be experienced either feeling, or perception, or conscious thought? Or can consciousness be something beyond these three forms of conscious experiences?

[Siemens]

Originally Posted by ketzer

I am comfortable taking away feelings and thoughts as I think you indicated, perception precedes them, but I can’t think of anything to add in.

Reversed: I think feelings precede perceptions. But I use the word perceptions in a slightly different way. I'll explain it later....

Originally Posted by ketzer

Take perception away and I don’t see what is left except the word consciousness.

Think about feeling inner harmony or complacency. There is no perception but there still is consciousness.


A noun defined by a verb(s), but if the verb is never realized, does the noun exist?

Originally Posted by ketzer

Does consciousness require the awareness of an I to be consciousness?

I think it does not. Think about the feeling of pain. I think you can experience it consciously without the awareness of an I.

Originally Posted by ketzer

If experience is all that is needed, then we are stuck with the question what counts as “experience”?

Experience is essentially the same as consciousness.

Originally Posted by ketzer

Does the rock “experience” the blow of the hammer ….even if it is not aware that it exists? It would not feel (as in emotions), think, or perceive the blow.

Then the rock wouldn’t experience the blow.

Originally Posted by ketzer

The existence of consciousness seems to me to imply an act (feeling, thinking, perceiving, … ?yodeling?), without which, there is not consciousness.

But yodeling without feeling, thinking, or perceiving anything would not be conscious.

[Siemens]

Originally Posted by Starman

It is illogical to come to a Spiritual Forum, ask a question, and then reject spiritual references. It might have shown clarity on your part to state in your original question that you wanted
something other than a spiritual or religious response. You might have gotten the responses
you were looking for if you posted this question on a scientific forum, or if you posted your
question in the Science and Spirituality section of this forum. But you posted your question
in the "Spirituality" section and then you reject spirituality responses to your question;
where is the logic in that?

For me spirituality has nothing to do with blind belief. I practice a higher form of spirituality based on insight.

As I already said: “You can use religious, dogmatic, or ideological writings as inspiration. But just believing what religion-xyz says without logically proving it isn’t a valid way of finding the truth.”

I would accept something that is written in a "holy book" as long it is comprehensible by logic. But if I can not relate the information to something that is empirically observable (in or outside myself), the information is worthless for me. Because else it would just be blind belief and this is the opposite of the quest for knowledge

Originally Posted by Starman

you posted your question in the "Spirituality" section and then you reject spirituality responses to your question; where is the logic in that?

I demand logic wherever I am.

[Starman]

Originally Posted by Siemens

I demand logic wherever I am.

Thank you for sharing your understanding with me, we all have our own philosophy,
theosophy, theology, or other way of looking at things.

My beliefs are not based on logic rather they are based on experience, and it is my
experience that the higher truths transcend logic, they transcend human reasoning,
they transcend thoughts and words. Thoughts are boxes that we put things in but
they are not the things themselves.

The minute we start to fit something into a logical pattern, or even try to define it,
we put it into a box, a concept, or mental construct. Most people live and have
their being within the awareness of their own mental constructs. But infinity does
not fit in a box, or a mental construct. Life is not finite, but logic is finite.

There is a greater existence, and existence which many call spiritual, or mystical,
and that existence is far removed from mental constructs. It is and existence
where knowledge is gained by other means. Those means may be intuitive, or
some way other then mentally. This existence is one that a person can experience
right now, and it is and existence that millions around the world experience everyday.

The greater truths, in my opinion, are extremely simple, so simple that the
complicated human mind fails to grasp them. This is my experience. The more
you elaborate on something the farther away from that something you get.

You get to a point where you no longer have what you are talking about rather
all you have is your elaboration of what you are talking about. We each have
our own preferences, and I do respect what you prefer even though it is not
my preference.

I used to be what I call "top heavy," or living in my head. A very astute logical
erudite intellectual. I was a college professor among other things, and I
designed and did a lot of scientific research. I was this way for a number of
decades; intellectual stimulation was a phase in my life that I enjoyed.

A woman who I was with convinced me that I needed to have a gut feeling
about things and not be so fixated in my head. Then I learned how to mediate
and quiet my mind, that opened new vistas for me. I share this with you that
you may know where I am coming from. I do not view this thru a lens
of "right and wrong." Rather I see it as a matter of personal preference.

Peace and Good Journey

Originally Posted by Siemens

I also think that consciousness is vibration. You talk about the form a being can take. But I’m interested in how a conscious being can EXPERIENCE consciousness. I gave a list of three. Is everything that can be experienced either feeling, or perception, or conscious thought? Or can consciousness be something beyond these three forms of conscious experiences?

I once was in a void.(The "I" was consciousness outside of the body.)
I did not feel it, I did not perceive it, and I did not think about it.
I did not know I was out of the body until I returned.

So I do not know what to call this experience.
But feelings,perception and thinking was deluded.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Siemens

I also think that consciousness is vibration. You talk about the form a being can take. But I’m interested in how a conscious being can EXPERIENCE consciousness. I gave a list of three. Is everything that can be experienced either feeling, or perception, or conscious thought? Or can consciousness be something beyond these three forms of conscious experiences?

Yes, it is beyond the form of conscious experience and I cannot explain how.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by ImthatIm

I once was in a void.(The "I" was consciousness outside of the body.)
I did not feel it, I did not perceive it, and I did not think about it.
I did not know I was out of the body until I returned.

So I do not know what to call this experience.
But feelings,perception and thinking was deluded.

... but it is something like this.

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

... but it is something like this.

Something like deluded?

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by ImthatIm

Something like deluded?

Ah, the limitations of human language..

Inaccuracy, distortion, misperception, inexactitude, erroneous..

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blin...nd_an_elephant

IT was six men of Indostan
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind.


II.


The First approached the Elephant,
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
At once began to bawl:
"God bless me!—but the Elephant
Is very like a wall!"


III.


The Second, feeling of the tusk,
Cried: "Ho!—what have we here
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me 't is mighty clear
This wonder of an Elephant
Is very like a spear!"


IV.


The Third approached the animal,
And happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
Thus boldly up and spake:

​
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant
Is very like a snake!"


V.


The Fourth reached out his eager hand,
And felt about the knee.
"What most this wondrous beast is like
Is mighty plain," quoth he;
"'T is clear enough the Elephant
Is very like a tree!"


VI.


The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear,
Said: "E'en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
Deny the fact who can,
This marvel of an Elephant
Is very like a fan!"


VII.


The Sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope,
Than, seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope,
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant
Is very like a rope!"


VIII.


And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
And all were in the wrong!

​
MORAL.


So, oft in theologic wars
The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance
Of what each other mean,
And prate about an Elephant
Not one of them has seen!