What is consciousness and in which forms can it appear?

[Siemens]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

At the moment it's not any kind of clear that we have a Soul, and for some we only have a single incarnation here while some religions say we have have many. Again it's another belief.

Oh – fine. I thought you would believe in reincarnation. So you are actually a kind of a spiritual atheist. I don’t believe in atheism; I have too much evidence that reincarnation does exist (especially from my own experience).

Originally Posted by Siemens

Oh – fine. I thought you would believe in reincarnation. So you are actually a kind of a spiritual atheist. I don’t believe in atheism; I have too much evidence that reincarnation does exist (especially from my own experience).

I think this is where your understanding is falling down, because you seem to have some weird ideas. I'm an atheist but I simply don't believe in God/Gods, atheists aren't as anti-God as many people are pro-God. I believe in reincarnation because I have many experiences and have talked to many people who have had the same. I also believe we have a Soul but it's more of an aspect of ourselves, as in Gestalt Reality.

[Emm]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

I'm going to be cantankerous and make the distinction between thinking and Gnosis, because perceptually they are very different. Tolle said that object consciousness is the consciousness of the brain/mind, so information, knowledge, the brain's chemical and electrical processes, memory...... The Soul doesn't have a brain. Gnosis is above that, it's more on a par with intuition and 'sixth sense' and seems to sit 'above the brain/mind. It's also on the same wavelength as mediumship, where a direct Spirit link is created. Although that doesn't use the brain/mind it's still filtered into the mechanism because the mind has to be able to understand it. I think we all have the potential to access higher aspects of consciousness through Gnosis and the like, but often too much store is placed on the mind.

I think we're on the same page where this is concerned. From my perspective at the moment I regard Consciousness as Awareness and Gnosis rather than just Awareness as when we do access higher Consciousness there's a knowing that comes with it. Thought to us is a verbal construct but does it begin with a subtle movement of energy within that is very quickly translated to language? Listening to Abraham Hicks they say that Esther translates their energy into language she's used to as opposed to repeating words they give her...could all our thought processes be the same? In which case does the brain actually think?

There's a neurosurgeon called Eban Alexander (he's on YouTube, love that facility lol) who had a rare form of meningitis that should have killed him. His brain was badly affected and his family were told even if he came out of the coma he couldn't live for much longer because his brain was virtually ineffective. When he came round 7 days later he didn't recognise things, had no language but was only aware of where he'd been with his NDE. Within weeks all his previous memories were back including his knowledge of his profession. Now I've no knowledge of how the brain works but it was his, his doctors and his colleagues opinion that he shouldn't be alive let alone be fully functioning. If his brain had been mush then where did his memories re-emerge from?

Originally Posted by Greenslade

I rather think we're along, long way off from having a forum-wide discussion on your last paragraph because you're going into territory where angels fear to tread. Even an understanding of vibrations is a long way off, never mind how vibrations, the Soul and energy all interact. The other issue I believe is that people tend to nobbler their own consciousness by ignoring things like science, which is a shame because in many ways it makes sense of what you're saying here.

Pity, because I think we have the answers each and everyone of us if we could pay very close attention to how our thought processes work...not the words but what happens just before. But it means being sensitive to things we're not used to focusing on, we just race ahead...if only we could slow down time lol

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Matsuru Emoto conducted some experiments that have been replicated over again. He took some jars, filled them with water and imprinted his consciousness onto them. On one jar he placed a sticky note that says "I Love you" and towards that jar he directed loving thoughts. Similarly with a jar with "I hate you" written on the note. The crystalline structures of the "I Love you" jar were very complex and intricate while the "I hate you" structure was more like a pool of melted plastic. When the Spiritual implications of that are better understood - and the reasons we don't want to embrace that consciousness - then we might make some progress in the Soul/energy/vibration discussion. I think a better discussion for the time being is being conscious of what we are conscious of, and our agenda as to the reasons consciousness is deliberately crippled.

I actually did that experiment myself with jars of rice in water. I was too curious to let it be just something I'd read or seen on You Tube. I couldn't believe that it actually did exactly the same as his experiment, so I posted it on Facebook lol. It made me more aware of my own interaction with people especially children as we are made up of more that 70% water. Which is more proof to me that awareness of what and how we attract thought may be one of life's lessons here...focus is important. I may be wrong but there's plenty I've personally experienced to advocate that.

Although I hear what you're saying regarding avoiding the energy/vibration discussion we are in need of pushing the bounderies a little bit rather than going over old ground. Consciousness has many levels but for us I think the end point here may be thought, what goes on inbetween could be interesting.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

There is a direct inter-relationship between the brain/mind mechanism and consciousness, my own experiences have shown me that. We also have access to 'input' beyond the five senses and what can be termed by the shrink as a mental health issue can mean that the brain's wiring has been altered and can access/create other levels of consciousness. We can become conscious then become conscious that we have consciousness, and when those two become distinct yet inter-related the fun really begins. What we are conscious of is not consciousness itself, and while we can progress through layer upon layer of consciousness consciousness itself 'sits atop' all of that.

I agree, and its the process from consciousness to thought that we should be exploring as the fundamental issue to all understanding. Its weird that scientists have been slow in figuring that one out but I guess its moving in that direction now thankfully.

[Shivani Devi]

I really enjoy watching the Spangler effect on non Newtonian solids:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ve8rJ_Z9jU

Fractal geometry is awesome!

When left to it's own devices in the presence of vibration, matter will arrange itself into familiar patterns according to mathematical algorithms..this is called cymatics...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MMAa37BxU4w

This is how consciousness creates matter, with the Fibonacci sequence and the Golden Ratio thrown in for good measure...

Yet, still realizing this...no two snowflakes or the crystalline structure of a grain of sand are identical...so how many different vibrations would it take to make a snowstorm? the Sahara Desert? codons in the collective human genome?

This is why I believe in Intelligent Design...and essentially, an Intelligent Designer (aka God).

That...and the tails of flagella and paramecium...The Intelligent Designer decided to build an outboard motor from proteins according to the vibratory rate of the environment around it:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fFq_MGf3sbk

All of the above...snowflakes, sand, bacteria, fingerprints...the structure of the universe..the nature of thought all boils down to irreducible complexity....it is the Source's "calling card" if you will.

So how does consciousness create thought? Nikola Tesla came closest to understanding it:
https://youtu.be/rieJef500nU

[Siemens]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

I think this is where your understanding is falling down, because you seem to have some weird ideas. I'm an atheist but I simply don't believe in God/Gods, atheists aren't as anti-God as many people are pro-God. I believe in reincarnation because I have many experiences and have talked to many people who have had the same. I also believe we have a Soul but it's more of an aspect of ourselves, as in Gestalt Reality.

Not mine but your ideas are weird. Your worldview is full of contradictions and there is no consistent logic.

One time you believe in the human soul, another time you aren’t sure. One the one side the soul is “just an aspect of ourselves” on the other side there should be reincarnation. If the soul doesn’t exist as an entity how should reincarnation work? What is it that reincarnates if the soul is just an aspect of the brain? One the one side consciousness is just an epiphenomenon on the other side consciousness creates matter. You use vague terms like “an aspect of ourselves” because you yourself don’t know what you actually believe. What does it mean that the “soul is an aspect of ourselves”?

By contrast, my convictions are 100% free of inconsistencies!

Originally Posted by Siemens

Not mine but your ideas are weird. Your worldview is full of contradictions and there is no consistent logic.

One time you believe in the human soul, another time you aren’t sure. One the one side the soul is “just an aspect of ourselves” on the other side there should be reincarnation. If the soul doesn’t exist as an entity how should reincarnation work? What is it that reincarnates if the soul is just an aspect of the brain? One the one side consciousness is just an epiphenomenon on the other side consciousness creates matter. You use vague terms like “an aspect of ourselves” because you yourself don’t know what you actually believe. What does it mean that the “soul is an aspect of ourselves”?

By contrast, my convictions are 100% free of inconsistencies!

No, in your reality my beliefs are weird because what you're talking about here is your perceptions of what my reality is, not my actual reality. In my reality my beliefs are not set by so-called logic but what I choose to believe in the moment. It's much more fun that way.



Got it yet?

[Siemens]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

No, in your reality my beliefs are weird because what you're talking about here is your perceptions of what my reality is, not my actual reality. In my reality my beliefs are not set by so-called logic but what I choose to believe in the moment. It's much more fun that way.

Got it yet?

It can be that there is a difference between your belief and my perception of your belief. But it’s hard to imagine that the idea of reincarnation and the non-existence of a soul in form of an entity (opposed to an aspect of the brain) can go together.

If one is convinced that a human being is nothing more than just his body and brain, then he – I think from an objective view – can’t believe in reincarantion at the same time. But this seems to be exactly what you do.

The one rules out the other.

Originally Posted by Siemens

It can be that there is a difference between your belief and my perception of your belief. But it’s hard to imagine that the idea of reincarnation and the non-existence of a soul in form of an entity (opposed to an aspect of the brain) can go together.

If one is convinced that a human being is nothing more than just his body and brain, then he – I think from an objective view – can’t believe in reincarantion at the same time. But this seems to be exactly what you do.

The one rules out the other.

It's nothing like what I do, that's your interpretation. I have some huge questions regarding both the Soul and reincarnation, and I'm also aware of so many conflicting beliefs about both of those. I just don't have any beliefs either way and that is what I am conscious of. I certainly never said the Soul had anything to do with the brain either. I believe in the Soul because there's a part of me that is consciousness of an aspect of myself that is so far beyond any body/brain/mind mechanism, just what it is is a best guess. I believe in reincarnation because time and again I've explored within myself and had experiences that confirm it, as well as having talked to people I've incarnated with. At the same time though, I'm also conscious of a range of beliefs of what reincarnation is so again I don't have hard-and-fast beliefs.



I'm also conscious that logic and reason are relative to one's own agenda so I don't pay that much heed to those either.

[Siemens]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

I'm also conscious that logic and reason are relative to one's own agenda so I don't pay that much heed to those either.

Logic and reason should be universal and objective. I think it’s impossible to find truth without it. Regarding reincarnation I think it’s logic that:
If there is reincarnation, then there has to be something that stores memories, experiences,.... from one life and overlasting this life.

Having reincarnated can’t mean anything else than:
The thing that gives rise to my conscious experience now also existed before my current incarnation and experienced itself in other worlds too. So there necessarily has to be something (able to store memories or experiences) that exists before, after, and independent of your current physical body/brain, if you reincarnated. This thing is what I call soul.

Originally Posted by Emm

I think we're on the same page where this is concerned. From my perspective at the moment I regard Consciousness as Awareness and Gnosis rather than just Awareness as when we do access higher Consciousness there's a knowing that comes with it. Thought to us is a verbal construct but does it begin with a subtle movement of energy within that is very quickly translated to language? Listening to Abraham Hicks they say that Esther translates their energy into language she's used to as opposed to repeating words they give her...could all our thought processes be the same? In which case does the brain actually think?

There's a neurosurgeon called Eban Alexander (he's on YouTube, love that facility lol) who had a rare form of meningitis that should have killed him. His brain was badly affected and his family were told even if he came out of the coma he couldn't live for much longer because his brain was virtually ineffective. When he came round 7 days later he didn't recognise things, had no language but was only aware of where he'd been with his NDE. Within weeks all his previous memories were back including his knowledge of his profession. Now I've no knowledge of how the brain works but it was his, his doctors and his colleagues opinion that he shouldn't be alive let alone be fully functioning. If his brain had been mush then where did his memories re-emerge from?

Close enough to the same page, yes. Consciousness always seems to be one step ahead, in that for every 'layer' of consciousness you become conscious of, there is still another 'layer' that is consciousness itself. You become conscious that you are conscious and you become conscious of what you are conscious of, yet 'above' that again there us just consciousness. Similarly with higher consciousness although I think the 'higher' part is there more for the understanding of the mind, because consciousness is beyond (that isn't the right word either) form there is no relativity so 'higher' and 'lower' become meaningless. There are no points of reference.

I'm a clairsentient medium and sometimes it feels as though I'm channelling rather than having a Spirit link, but either way it helps me understand the process. What I receive is conscious communication, t put it simply. Depending on how I sense it, it can come in the form of dream-like images or in the form of Gnosis. If you think of how the subconscious communicates with the conscious mind via dreams you'll get the idea. That has to be translated for the conscious mind. Mostly and because I'm clairsentient though, it's a Gnosis/knowing. Mu wife channels, and what happens with her is that she's sent to a room to sit while a Spirit will inhabit her body as if it was their own. For my own perceptions anyway, it's consciousness rather than energy but then perhaps it depends on the individual.

Science is moving away from the idea that memories are local to the brain, and that the brain is more the mechanism of storage and retrieval rather than the medium itself. That would explain Alexander's memories returning. According to Hameroff and Penrose your head is quantum-capable due to microtubules, which explains so much about our perceptions of reality. Perhaps it's also a scientific basis for Gnosis, mediumship, intuition...

Originally Posted by Emm

Pity, because I think we have the answers each and everyone of us if we could pay very close attention to how our thought processes work...not the words but what happens just before. But it means being sensitive to things we're not used to focusing on, we just race ahead...if only we could slow down time lol

Regardless of how Spiritual we label ourselves we're still victims to the ravages of our own humanity, and all the Awareness that's boasted of hasn't changed that. People don't want to know what their Spirituality is founded on works, because the underpinnings are often more flaky than most would want to acknowledge. We don't need the ability to slow down time, we need honesty.

Originally Posted by Emm

I actually did that experiment myself with jars of rice in water. I was too curious to let it be just something I'd read or seen on You Tube. I couldn't believe that it actually did exactly the same as his experiment, so I posted it on Facebook lol. It made me more aware of my own interaction with people especially children as we are made up of more that 70% water. Which is more proof to me that awareness of what and how we attract thought may be one of life's lessons here...focus is important. I may be wrong but there's plenty I've personally experienced to advocate that.

Although I hear what you're saying regarding avoiding the energy/vibration discussion we are in need of pushing the bounderies a little bit rather than going over old ground. Consciousness has many levels but for us I think the end point here may be thought, what goes on inbetween could be interesting.

I can't help but wonder the same thing, the interaction between consciousness, energy and how it affects both ourselves and our surroundings - and others. It certainly lends a different dimension on the discussions of attraction, vibrations and Spirituality itself. It's when you become your Spirituality that the Universe around you becomes a little more interactive.

The energy/vibration discussion has never been a discussion about energy or vibration. Those are two terms that have been borrowed from other sources - ego being another major one -and crowbarred into place for the sake of agenda. Those terms come from science not Spirituality and more often they're badly misunderstood. Having consciousness is not enough, becoming conscious of what you are conscious of is important, as well as being humble enough to accept that we are not conscious of what we are not conscious of. The swallow taught me that lesson.

Originally Posted by Emm

I agree, and its the process from consciousness to thought that we should be exploring as the fundamental issue to all understanding. Its weird that scientists have been slow in figuring that one out but I guess its moving in that direction now thankfully.

Their are only two things that the research of consciousness agrees to, one is that it's scary and the other thing is that nobody is exactly sure of how to tackle the problem. What I know from my own experiences is that while consciousness and thought are interconnected, they're not always so. Consciousness can be compartmentalised while the brain/mind carries on separately. There are also things that are in our consciousness and we have no consciousness of how they got there. And the world around you looks very different when your wiring isn't the same as everyone else.