To who/m or what does ...

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Sometimes all we have to do is create the space and not fill it with anything else, nature abhors a vacuum so let it do it thing. We can fill our heads with 'I am this' and 'I an not that' but that keeps out the really good stuff. Never really liked mustard, horrible stuff.

We're all looking to be a part of something bigger than ourselves, often that bigger is the bigger selves within us but do we like what we see or do we cover that in mustard, and ketchup?

The magic and beauty is hard to find nowadays but if you know where to look it's still there. So we become Gods in amnesia because only humans can have the imagination and see the Universe through the wondrous eyes of a child, Spirit already knows and why take this particular Journey to know what is already known?

It is not for us to say at what point does enough become enough of suffering unless that suffering is our own. Others have made their choices the same as we have and for some, even though they might say enough is enough the suffering still continues. I have a couple of friends in the Philippines, one of whom had their home washed away in a typhoon when she was a child. Another lives near a river, idyllic in nice weather but terrifying when the raging water is a few feet from the front door.

If this is what concerns us deeply there's nothing coming over us. Perhaps the "To who/whom does" is becoming more lost. The answers are all around, G-L.

Sure there doesn't need for a space to be filled with stuff that relates to anything known bout ourselves in a conceptual way but there is a greater peace for realizing Self than being ignorant of Self .

This can reflect the need to create a space that reflects just that, just as there is the need to create a space that weighs up the pros and cons for a specific issue or dilemma one has .

I think for many your right in that the magic and the beauty is hard to find nowadays even though it's present in most things, it's just many are in some way out of sync with these things .

Your also right in that it is not for us to say at what point does enough become enough of suffering in regards to another, my thoughts simply echoed when simply existing isn't enough in itself ..

Simply existing being enough normally reflects a level of peace and contentment which I suppose most peeps haven't got .

Peeps like the gurus and masters at a point wouldn't even self enquire if they were content and at peace in not knowing / realizing Self .

The thing is, most at this point don't have an immediate choice, it is like the fruit dropping from the tree when ripe, it's just the right time .

In regards to your concerns or concerns of others in life's trauma's and dramas does it really matter who/m or what is suffering or concerned, perhaps not and this is something that I emphasised .

I emphasised that it's normally in hindsight and when the dust settles, when one has a space in mind to entertain the depths of self ..

When a tidal wave is coming for you, the last thing on your mind would be who am I .

Your words contemplated upon as you post was done so in a particular mind space I would assume and not while running from a mountain lion

There is a time and a place and a space for everything ..



x daz x

Originally Posted by God-Like

Sure there doesn't need for a space to be filled with stuff that relates to anything known bout ourselves in a conceptual way but there is a greater peace for realizing Self than being ignorant of Self .

This can reflect the need to create a space that reflects just that, just as there is the need to create a space that weighs up the pros and cons for a specific issue or dilemma one has .

I think for many your right in that the magic and the beauty is hard to find nowadays even though it's present in most things, it's just many are in some way out of sync with these things .

Your also right in that it is not for us to say at what point does enough become enough of suffering in regards to another, my thoughts simply echoed when simply existing isn't enough in itself ..

Simply existing being enough normally reflects a level of peace and contentment which I suppose most peeps haven't got .

Peeps like the gurus and masters at a point wouldn't even self enquire if they were content and at peace in not knowing / realizing Self .

The thing is, most at this point don't have an immediate choice, it is like the fruit dropping from the tree when ripe, it's just the right time .

In regards to your concerns or concerns of others in life's trauma's and dramas does it really matter who/m or what is suffering or concerned, perhaps not and this is something that I emphasised .

I emphasised that it's normally in hindsight and when the dust settles, when one has a space in mind to entertain the depths of self ..

When a tidal wave is coming for you, the last thing on your mind would be who am I .

Your words contemplated upon as you post was done so in a particular mind space I would assume and not while running from a mountain lion

There is a time and a place and a space for everything ..



x daz x

But who/what is Self? Peace doesn't always come from knowing/not ignorant of Self, for me it came because I chose to forget all the conflicts of the definitions of what self, Self, True Self.... Does the choice to be in amnesia constitute ignorance?

The space doesn't need to be created, the space has always been there but often we feel as though we have to fill it full of all kinds of furniture - like beliefs and conclusions, thinking that we should think like Spiritual people.... We just have to be present in it and stop the mind clutter.

Actually yes it does matter who/m or what is suffering, at least on a psychological basis anyway. If it's 'not you/I am' that's doing the suffering then it's possible there are mental health issues at play. If you are suffering yet your mind is tell you that you're Spiritual and it's not 'you' that's suffering?

If it came to a choice between survival and Spirituality all of our mind spaces would be very different, which is why I said "If this is what concerns us deeply there's nothing coming over us." When that lion is on my tail, the 'who/m' will be the one running for his Life and screaming his lungs out, the same 'who/m' that's writing this post. I'll also understand my ancestors a little better too.

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

But who/what is Self? Peace doesn't always come from knowing/not ignorant of Self, for me it came because I chose to forget all the conflicts of the definitions of what self, Self, True Self.... Does the choice to be in amnesia constitute ignorance?

.

Self I would say is what you are beyond the thought of what you are as an individual ..

It would be futile to say what that is . The question of what that is comes from the individual .

Self isn't something that requires to know itself as that . Self cannot know what Self is, that is why there are waves of the ocean .

Does one choose to have amnesia or is one just following the natural law of experience .

If it was a choice you would perhaps see half the worlds population not exercising / experiencing forgetfulness ..

It seems to be necessary until it is time to realize / remember what you are .



x daz x

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

The space doesn't need to be created, the space has always been there but often we feel as though we have to fill it full of all kinds of furniture - like beliefs and conclusions, thinking that we should think like Spiritual people.... We just have to be present in it and stop the mind clutter.

I was inspired to look into the merkabah a few years back and it is basically in laymans terms a geometrical energetic pattern occupying space around the individual .

I had a thread on this once upon a times as and when the thoughts came to me . I had never heard of it before until that moment .

Anyhow if we follow this line of enquiry regarding your thoughts pertaining to the space has always been there I would beg to differ in this respect / line of thought .

It could be said that what you are has always been here / there / everywhere and in this respect the space for that which you are is always present, but there seems to be required a specific energy field within 'space' in order for certain things to manifest and become realized .

Some refer to this as rites of passage and such likes, but I understand you don't see this resonance / high vibrations / hierarchy stuff has holding any weight which is fine .

Some say that you are what you eat, some say you are what you think, it does boil down to what one is emitting energetically speaking that creates an energy field / space around you . This also has an impact on how you perceive yourself and others .

Some will say that when there is a headful of stress and worry and turmoil there is no room for peace until the storm has blown itself out .

This also reflects an aspect of occupied space that is either peaceful or not .

There is however the understanding that the sun is always shinning and it's just the clouded mind that stops the rays from penetrating you and I see this as being correct and perhaps falls inline with what you are saying but the clouds obstruct the sun because there are clouds present .



x daz x

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Actually yes it does matter who/m or what is suffering, at least on a psychological basis anyway. If it's 'not you/I am' that's doing the suffering then it's possible there are mental health issues at play. If you are suffering yet your mind is tell you that you're Spiritual and it's not 'you' that's suffering?

Yes I agree it does matter in this context that is why it also matters who/m or what is the doer / observer .

There is an automatic reflection had concerning what we are that does / observers / thinks / suffers .

There are some masters that suggest the mind-body aspect is not the real I AM so the body suffers but not the real I AM that does .

Then there are suggestions that the real I AM is the watcher or observer and such likes but as said when push comes to shove one cannot prise apart that which observers / thinks / feels / suffers etc ..

To embrace one aspect and not the other just divides .

This is part of the parcel of why nis smoked and I am led to believe attributed the pleasures of the flesh to a body thing and not the real I thing .

It could be seen as a get out of jail card depending on how you look at it .

The main point is though is one can't dance through life not associating and discerning what you are from being this or that, because we behave accordingly based upon how we see things .

One might say the real I AM is not of the body but they still preserve life and out of attachment to the I AM of the body step aside from an oncoming bus .

This is a test of their faith and belief is it not .

You mentioned earlier

We can fill our heads with 'I am this' and 'I an not that' but that keeps out the really good stuff.

But one cannot help but have an idea in mind that we are this and not that because our actions speak louder than words .


x daz x

[davidsun]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQeJpnDJBKU

[lemex]

Originally Posted by God-Like

Self I would say is what you are beyond the thought of what you are as an individual ..

It would be futile to say what that is . The question of what that is comes from the individual .

Self isn't something that requires to know itself as that . Self cannot know what Self is, that is why there are waves of the ocean .

Does one choose to have amnesia or is one just following the natural law of experience .

If it was a choice you would perhaps see half the worlds population not exercising / experiencing forgetfulness ..

It seems to be necessary until it is time to realize / remember what you are

x daz x

Actually though it may be possible to know. Maybe we have been taught we couldn't. If I graded myself spiritually it wouldn't be an A. As was noted, "we" go beyond the thought of what we are as an individual (body). This question of presence. Some say we are spiritual beings having experience. This is said a lot but what does it mean. Does it mean poof when we die, there we are a spirit. It may mean one is already a spirit. The body is not a prison we escape. Think of it we are in another room at the same time. This is the point one already is. So we are spiritual beings already and can one communicate with that spirit. iow, maybe in terms of self, it is we the body have must listen to the self that exists already. Many even talk about other outside entities, ie; guides, etc. If one is a spirit already, instead of people always trying to go to the outside, why can't one connect to the self that already is/exists (spirit). One of the things I have been thinking about recently. iwo, as said, go to that beyond, that place that is not where the body is, there we (will) find ourselves. It's as though none has any thought they are self that they cannot be self, it is not even explored, by anyone. That's a good way to hide it.


It's about observation, would the spirit self observe what the body self does. I have no idea what the other side is observing and it would be cool to know that. imo, we don't even know what the self observes and this may be what the self knows and surprisingly actually talks to us, this dimensional self. iow, can we be guides to ourselves and are. Again because, we are not the body. We are eternal. It's been said we are spiritual beings having experience and we don't remember, we've forgotten. Dreams, visions, etc. The conscious state directs us away from such things and makes us forget. It is the conscious state that is the forgetting state, right.


The reason we don't remember is obvious (hint: physical) but maybe the self communicates with us, trying. One only needs to stop and listen. For any who have asked the name of their guides has any ever heard their own name I wonder. Iwo, communication with self takes place from a different perspective. I don't think anyone can think of themselves as knowing, being the one. Is it worth exploring, I don't think it ever has been. I know I have never considered myself being me talking to this temporary self.



What if the barrier is the body. What if the HS is that connection, a communication. Maybe this is why the HS is so familiar and personal to us, even patient and nonjudgmental and why it sounds so familiar when we access it. This is the strangest idea I have ever seen in my mind. Go figure. We already are spirits. If I could speak with spirits, this is the question I would ask...... I think it's about what we want and the program (in us). Ahhhh, the matrix.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by God-Like

Hey :)

It really is okay for peeps not to follow up on my counter questions pertaining to their ideas / notions and beliefs . It will leave them food for thought or it won't and that's okay, but it will give peeps the sense of where I am coming from and reflects at times things are not as they seem to be . Things are not as they seem to be regarding why we suffer and what constitutes free will amongst other things .

Hey there Dazza :) For sure, there is still much that remains a mystery.

But to simplify greatly, it is so, because whilst still largely unawakened and misaligned, we will it so and (re)create it as such.

As we more fully awaken and consciously align to our centre, we will and (re)create differently. Indeed :)

Your right in that there has not been much follow up regarding the doer being illusory and such likes, the more questions are asked about that which is illusory always gets squashed when we delve a little deeper so instead of following up the illusory part and making a case for it one perhaps begins to see that it's a no brainer to start with and rather let sleeping dogs lie .

Maybe so, yes. Most of the folks who didn't get a lot of follow up response were more the ones who spoke about the insights & resolution of this issue from the perspective of the heart-led consciousness and very possibly they may not have seen your more recent responses where you discussed that more fully from your own perspective.

I think that happens often even when we look at the free will aspect to cry as explained, it's easy to say I have the free will to cry or not when you have the means to cry or not lol .

As we drill down a bit, yes, things get more nuanced.

Issues of external means (food, shelter, eventually even just governance) will largely be addressed when enough folks have awakened and will the higher good of all.

Whereas issues of internal means are 2-fold: if they relate directly to emotion (such as crying) then they can't be other than what they are. Sometimes your grief is buried or obstructed and you can't feel, much less cry. These things can only be handled gently over time.

But if the internal means relate to intent, though, word or deed...these are things over which you can exercise conscious choice.
Meaning, just because Source knows what you will or won't do, so what? ;)

Because Source also knows if YOU want to do something differently now or in the next moment, then THAT becomes what Source knows of you and THAT becomes what you were "always meant to do". That is a rather meaningless phrase but we earthlings still use it all the time like it means something ;) And it's what Source has known all along, supposedly, whilst to us it can be seen as changing everything. I suppose what I'm trying to say is that it only seems like (quantum) paradox. Source isn't ONLY or exclusively "observing" from on high outside time and space...Source/we are also doing and being down here, on the ground inside time/space.

And the reason we're down here is to become aware and take ownership. There is no way to do and be love without being here now, from a place of awareness where we acknowledge that everyone and everthing matter. "Namaste", ahimsa, authentic love and all the rest are meaningless if we don't have to take ownership because no one (else) matters.

My understanding is that this entire material realm exists in no small part to provide a place where we can become aware and take ownership of who and what and all that we are. Our awareness and ownership are fundamentally premised on (our uncovering the reality that) everything and everyone matter.

When G.S. spoke about there not being an answer anytime soon is based upon the level of the answer/s ..

I wasn't looking for the holy grail or the mother of all answers, I was in a way more open to the notion and fact that there needs all the facts at hand while also noting what energies lie at the heart of self and at the heart of spirit prior to incarnation .

Going back to the heart center or back to the Source of oneself or God is Love, (roughly translated) so no matter how we dress any expression up there is only what we are and what we are that is, at the heart of anything ..

There is only who/what we are at centre, yes. 1) Becoming aware of what we are, 2) aligning our lives with the truth of who/what we are and consciously taking decisions from this place -- these things are another matter, in that they require our conscious engagement with the truth that there is only who/what we.

They require that we take the reigns and steer our own journey...that's where ownership (and partnership w/source, guides, fellow travellers, etc.) comes into play.

We have to at some point keep going back to what we are be it the doer or observer, the lover or the abuser etc ..

Yes, and ultimately, we will circle round and round who we at centre -- until we begin to do so with conscious engagement and ownership. It seems compassion and lovingkindness as well as discipline, restraint, and temperance are valuable on this journey. Being present, and seeing and listening with "mind in heart".

There can be a quantum entanglement as G.S put it and one can leave it be entangled or one can try and unravel self and enquire ..

Speaking from experience, IMO we should all do the latter regardless (sort your own stuff or portion of the shared stuff).

Degrees of entanglement (so to speak) vary but at the deepest level it is foundational and cannot be undone without putting your own soul back into the "melting pot" and thereby ending your individuated piece of What Is So...IMO, best to live clean and love kindly and justly, taking particular care and kindness around the deepest sorts of entanglement.

Regardless, it's clear to me that for each of us, your bit is still on you and no one else. So might as well get on with sorting and owning your stuff, LOL so as to make all that entanglement easier to sort and bear.

There are no right or wrong ways to go about how one does that or if there is the thought to simply let things be as they are without contemplating on it .

When the wind blows it blows, when it doesn't it doesn't .. it's all good .

This perhaps ties in with what you said about different levels and one challenges or burdens ..

This is actually what I was pushing a while back about the veil of forgetfulness .

I think, with regard to the pre-arrangements, this bit you said above is among the most relevant and important. I did get my question on this asked and answered "in public", and I would say (omitting details, LOL), that the overall takeaway would be similar to what you say here. That, and that the importance of lovingkindness is front and centre, particularly as we move into spaces of deeper awareness. (BTW I feel like Nature's Flow could have said that and I wonder what's she's up to these days?)

Divine order comes to mind which on an immediate level doesn't reflect free will if one has to wait for the right moment .

Who/m or what put's divine order in motion is probably another question for another day .

x daz x

For certain, it's complex. There is struggle, there is healing, there is growth, there are the many external factors, there is the multifaceted will and input of the multitudes of sentient beings and collective groups even just here are earth...

As to who puts it in motion, it's a combo of all I mentioned, plus all the masters and guides caring for this realm in all levels, including what we call the higher realms and in spirit.

I have been asked a handful of times about a major trajectory on my path. In each case, guides discussed the situation (do you want to do this?) and we talked and I said either yes or no. It used to be more in the nature of prayer or meditation but for many years now it is simply a direct "face-to-face" discussion. We do have input into many things on our journey, we are co-creators of our journey with source and the guides, and we can make changes along the way.

That's what I did. I was determined to awaken and catch up, regarding becoming aware and owning my share. I swam upstream for a bit and now I've rounded that bend. Over time I came to see all of it is in part at least due to a lot of brutal past-life entanglement you might say (very common), mixed in with the (also all too common) burdens and baggage we all carry from this life.

What I will say is this...it's good to remember. It's good to be aware. It's good to catch up and round the bend. These are the initial steps. But on their own they solve, resolve, and absolve nothing. And nor are they meant to do so. It is we who now have the choice to act. With authentic love, mind in heart? Or in some other way?

It is all prelude until we take ownership and act (intend, think, say, and do) in such a way that we align with who we are at centre.

Peace & blessings
7L

Originally Posted by God-Like

Self I would say is what you are beyond the thought of what you are as an individual ..

It would be futile to say what that is . The question of what that is comes from the individual .

Self isn't something that requires to know itself as that . Self cannot know what Self is, that is why there are waves of the ocean .

Does one choose to have amnesia or is one just following the natural law of experience .

If it was a choice you would perhaps see half the worlds population not exercising / experiencing forgetfulness ..

It seems to be necessary until it is time to realize / remember what you are .



x daz x

If Self cannot know what Self is, then are we always going to be ignorant of Self? Or, once we've stripped away the beliefs, the concepts, the knowledge and brought about the cessation of all conclusions can we not know what Self is because we can exist as that Self?



In the Gestalt Reality of the Multi-Dimensional Self the sum of all of the aspects of the whole is not just greater than the whole it is a being in its own respect, different from the aspects themselves. There is no 'I am' or 'I am not', there just is what there is. Perhaps we are using the wrong language, perhaps what we cannot see is that we are emergent.


We are Gods in amnesia, we came from Spirit so we were everything that we project onto Spirit yet we are here to develop Spiritually and learn the lessons.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Hey there Dazza :) For sure, there is still much that remains a mystery.

But to simplify greatly, it is so, because whilst still largely unawakened and misaligned, we will it so and (re)create it as such.

As we more fully awaken and consciously align to our centre, we will and (re)create differently. Indeed :)

Maybe so, yes. Most of the folks who didn't get a lot of follow up response were more the ones who spoke about the insights & resolution of this issue from the perspective of the heart-led consciousness and very possibly they may not have seen your more recent responses where you discussed that more fully from your own perspective.

As we drill down a bit, yes, things get more nuanced.

Issues of external means (food, shelter, eventually even just governance) will largely be addressed when enough folks have awakened and will the higher good of all.

Whereas issues of internal means are 2-fold: if they relate directly to emotion (such as crying) then they can't be other than what they are. Sometimes your grief is buried or obstructed and you can't feel, much less cry. These things can only be handled gently over time.

But if the internal means relate to intent, though, word or deed...these are things over which you can exercise conscious choice.
Meaning, just because Source knows what you will or won't do, so what? ;)

Because Source also knows if YOU want to do something differently now or in the next moment, then THAT becomes what Source knows of you and THAT becomes what you were "always meant to do". That is a rather meaningless phrase but we earthlings still use it all the time like it means something ;) And it's what Source has known all along, supposedly, whilst to us it can be seen as changing everything. I suppose what I'm trying to say is that it only seems like (quantum) paradox. Source isn't ONLY or exclusively "observing" from on high outside time and space...Source/we are also doing and being down here, on the ground inside time/space.

And the reason we're down here is to become aware and take ownership. There is no way to do and be love without being here now, from a place of awareness where we acknowledge that everyone and everthing matter. "Namaste", ahimsa, authentic love and all the rest are meaningless if we don't have to take ownership because no one (else) matters.

My understanding is that this entire material realm exists in no small part to provide a place where we can become aware and take ownership of who and what and all that we are. Our awareness and ownership are fundamentally premised on (our uncovering the reality that) everything and everyone matter.There is only who/what we are at centre, yes. 1) Becoming aware of what we are, 2) aligning our lives with the truth of who/what we are and consciously taking decisions from this place -- these things are another matter, in that they require our conscious engagement with the truth that there is only who/what we.

They require that we take the reigns and steer our own journey...that's where ownership (and partnership w/source, guides, fellow travellers, etc.) comes into play.

Yes, and ultimately, we will circle round and round who we at centre -- until we begin to do so with conscious engagement and ownership. It seems compassion and lovingkindness as well as discipline, restraint, and temperance are valuable on this journey. Being present, and seeing and listening with "mind in heart".

Speaking from experience, IMO we should all do the latter regardless (sort your own stuff or portion of the shared stuff).

Degrees of entanglement (so to speak) vary but at the deepest level it is foundational and cannot be undone without putting your own soul back into the "melting pot" and thereby ending your individuated piece of What Is So...IMO, best to live clean and love kindly and justly, taking particular care and kindness around the deepest sorts of entanglement.

Regardless, it's clear to me that for each of us, your bit is still on you and no one else. So might as well get on with sorting and owning your stuff, LOL so as to make all that entanglement easier to sort and bear.

I think, with regard to the pre-arrangements, this bit you said above is among the most relevant and important. I did get my question on this asked and answered "in public", and I would say (omitting details, LOL), that the overall takeaway would be similar to what you say here. That, and that the importance of lovingkindness is front and centre, particularly as we move into spaces of deeper awareness. (BTW I feel like Nature's Flow could have said that and I wonder what's she's up to these days?)

For certain, it's complex. There is struggle, there is healing, there is growth, there are the many external factors, there is the multifaceted will and input of the multitudes of sentient beings and collective groups even just here are earth...

As to who puts it in motion, it's a combo of all I mentioned, plus all the masters and guides caring for this realm in all levels, including what we call the higher realms and in spirit.

I have been asked a handful of times about a major trajectory on my path. In each case, guides discussed the situation (do you want to do this?) and we talked and I said either yes or no. It used to be more in the nature of prayer or meditation but for many years now it is simply a direct "face-to-face" discussion. We do have input into many things on our journey, we are co-creators of our journey with source and the guides, and we can make changes along the way.

That's what I did. I was determined to awaken and catch up, regarding becoming aware and owning my share. I swam upstream for a bit and now I've rounded that bend. Over time I came to see all of it is in part at least due to a lot of brutal past-life entanglement you might say (very common), mixed in with the (also all too common) burdens and baggage we all carry from this life.

What I will say is this...it's good to remember. It's good to be aware. It's good to catch up and round the bend. These are the initial steps. But on their own they solve, resolve, and absolve nothing. And nor are they meant to do so. It is we who now have the choice to act. With authentic love, mind in heart? Or in some other way?

It is all prelude until we take ownership and act (intend, think, say, and do) in such a way that we align with who we are at centre.

Peace & blessings
7L

Thar's 'gold' them thar words, folks!