Understanding the Lords Prayer

[django]

Originally Posted by barrynu

That's the reason we have so many different interpretations of what "God" is.
Lots of books wrote about what God is and what God wants but books and words are a human thing and cannot describe God.

Feelings are one step closer to God than words and books.
My advice to anyone that want to feel god is to put away the books and take the thinking mind out of the process.

There's a monastery not far from me where the monks sing,,i think i will visit soon

I would prefer to do as the apostle Paul suggests and “test everything; hold fast what is good” (1 Thess. 5:21) which requires me to think very clearly, and to discern between good and bad advice. I don't feel the need to be dewy eyed about spirituality, and I dislike the no-mind new age ethos.

[davidmartin]

The Lords prayer is a grounding prayer
It opposes anything that is not authentic
This includes legalistic ritual prayer, babbling prayer which is one sided, altered states of consciousness that fly away from solid bedrock reality
It is earthy and simple, no **

The only thing to add is the phrase 'daily bread' is a guess of the real meaning. The Greek uses a made-up word that looks like 'supernatural' + 'bread'
Its a clear reference to manna or heavenly bread, the scintillation of God's divinity and the sustenance of the Holy Spirit or Word indwelling. It for sure doesn't refer to normal food except as a symbol hoping that God will provide this too

[django]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Think more about Grace and how Jesus shared that Grace or Peace with others.

How did Jesus share Grace with others?


Samsara is this world one is caught up in. In Buddhism, depending on the tradition all of this is just energy. When one has moved beyond the local mind and realized it is all one and the same. They have entered in or realized nirvana.

Nirvana literally refers to the extinguishing of the fires of greed, hatred and delusion.

https://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning...data/fdd43.htm

I'm sorry I just don't agree with your analogy between nirvana and the kingdom of heaven, nor that nirvana = samsara, or that everything is all one and the same.

Jesus describes it like this.

22. Jesus saw some babies nursing. He said to his disciples, "These nursing babies are like those who enter the (Father's) kingdom." They said to him, "Then shall we enter the (Father's) kingdom as babies?" Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."

If you look at the temptations of Jesus. Were they not all temptations of the ego? Power, glory, etc.

Those are our attachments, let them go and you realize the light within.

I don't disagree that the temptations were of the ego, but letting go of the ego is a very big job I suspect, not just something easily let go of. If ego is entirely removed I agree someone couldn't be tempted. But with even the slightest bit of ego still existing every decision will still be coloured by ego. In your earlier quote from Paul - "but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able" - it shows that someone with great ego will be given small tests, but someone with no ego will be given very hard tests because they 'are able'.

Letting go of ego is also associated with completely submitting to God's will of course - "Thy will be done"

..........

[django]

Originally Posted by davidmartin

The Lords prayer is a grounding prayer
It opposes anything that is not authentic
This includes legalistic ritual prayer, babbling prayer which is one sided, altered states of consciousness that fly away from solid bedrock reality
It is earthy and simple, no **

The only thing to add is the phrase 'daily bread' is a guess of the real meaning. The Greek uses a made-up word that looks like 'supernatural' + 'bread'
Its a clear reference to manna or heavenly bread, the scintillation of God's divinity and the sustenance of the Holy Spirit or Word indwelling. It for sure doesn't refer to normal food except as a symbol hoping that God will provide this too

It might be a reference to manna, but I always took it as a petition to God that He look after the basics necessary for physical life so we might be free to search for the Kingdom within, along the lines of:

Matthew 6:25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow. They don't toil, neither do they spin...
31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? 32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

I agree that it is a grounding prayer, and this understanding of 'daily bread' fits in with this idea.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by django

..........

How did Jesus share Grace with others?

His being, did he not heal the sick, cast out demons. Did not the apostles heal through his grace?

Matthew 3:11
I baptize you with water for repentance, but after me will come One more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

Any thoughts on what the Holy Spirit is or again, what Jesus meant by bread?

Nirvana literally refers to the extinguishing of the fires of greed, hatred and delusion.


Quote:

Buddha said "One thing and only one thing do I teach, suffering and the cessation of suffering". It would seem therefore that Nirvana is neither complete nothingness or existence being in the way that these words are usually used. One thing is certain though, it is not a heaven state and it is not the absorption of the individual soul into an Absolute, an idea that is more indicative of Hinduism.

https://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning...data/fdd43.htm

I'm sorry I just don't agree with your analogy between nirvana and the kingdom of heaven, nor that nirvana = samsara, or that everything is all one and the same.

There is much to understand in that link. One has to understand what Wisdom is and it is not knowledge.

Here is what Dzogchen said with the all is of one essence.. Not all is one.

The third of the three primordial wisdoms is energy. Its
characteristic is that it manifests without interruption.4 The
explanation of energy in Dzogchen is fundamental to understanding
the base. All dimensions, whether pure or impure,
material or subtle, are manifestations of one aspect or
another of energy. To explain how both transmigration and
enlightenment originate, three ways in which energy manifests
are described. These three modes of energy are called
"tsel" (rtsal), "rolba" (rol ba) , and "dang" (gdangs), names
that cannot be translated into Western languages.

What is described as cessation of suffering and what Nirvana is, is referred to as the Primordial state. It has 3 aspects, one was energy. Here are the other two.

The essence is the void, the real condition of the individual
and of all phenomena. This base is the condition of all individuals,
whether they are aware of it or not, whether they
are enlightened or in transmigration. It is said to be "pure
from the beginning" (ka dag), because, like space, it is free of
all impediments, and is the basis of all the manifestations in
existence.

The manifestation of the primordial state in all its aspects,
its "clarity," on the other hand, is called the nature. It is said
to be "self-perfected" (lhun grub), because it exists spontaneously
from the beginning, like the sun which shines in
space. Clarity is the pure quality of all thought and of all
perceived phenomena, uncontaminated by mental judgment.
For example, when we see a flower, we first perceive
its image without the mind entering into judgment, even if
this phase of perception only lasts for a fraction of a second.
Then, in a second phase, mental judgment enters into the
situation and one categorizes the perception, thinking,
"That's a flower, it's red, it has a specific scent, and so on."
Developing from this, attachment and aversion, acceptance
and rejection all arise, with the consequent creation of karma and transmigration. Clarity is the phase in which perception
is vivid and present, but the mind has not yet entered
into action. It is the spontaneous manifestation of the
individual's state. The same is true for thoughts: if we don't
follow them, and don't become caught up in mental judgment,
they too are part of our natural clarity.

With the above we also have in Buddhism the Heart Sutra void=form and form=void.

Jesus talks about it like this.

50. Jesus said, "If they say to you, 'Where have you come from?' say to them, 'We have come from the light, from the place where the light came into being by itself, established [itself], and appeared in their image.' If they say to you, 'Is it you?' say, 'We are its children, and we are the chosen of the living Father.' If they ask you, 'What is the evidence of your Father in you?' say to them, 'It is motion and rest.'"

Light being energy, the where the light came into being is emptiness.

Motion=form, rest=void.

All "things" are light.. Buddhist would agree but the true nature of everything is emptiness. The place where the light came into being by itself.

I don't disagree that the temptations were of the ego, but letting go of the ego is a very big job I suspect, not just something easily let go of. If ego is entirely removed I agree someone couldn't be tempted. But with even the slightest bit of ego still existing every decision will still be coloured by ego. In your earlier quote from Paul - "but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able" - it shows that someone with great ego will be given small tests, but someone with no ego will be given very hard tests because they 'are able'.

Letting go of ego is also associated with completely submitting to God's will of course - "Thy will be done"

To me it is saying, we will all be tested, get caught up in our obstructions but there is always a way to let them go.

Just like all the traditions mention, what all the spiritual practices are about.

[django]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

His being, did he not heal the sick, provide bread etc.

Originally you said heaven is found within or thru you. He did heal and do miracles, but what has that got to do with finding heaven within or thru you? I just don't understand what you mean by finding heaven 'thru you', and what finding heaven thru you has to do with grace and healing and miracles

There is much to understand in that link. One has to understand what Wisdom is and it is not knowledge.

Here is what Dzogchen said with the all is of one essence.. Not all is one.

The third of the three primordial wisdoms is energy. Its
characteristic is that it manifests without interruption.4 The
explanation of energy in Dzogchen is fundamental to understanding
the base. All dimensions, whether pure or impure,
material or subtle, are manifestations of one aspect or
another of energy. To explain how both transmigration and
enlightenment originate, three ways in which energy manifests
are described. These three modes of energy are called
"tsel" (rtsal), "rolba" (rol ba) , and "dang" (gdangs), names
that cannot be translated into Western languages.

What is described as cessation of suffering and what Nirvana is, is referred to as the Primordial state. It has 3 aspects, one was energy. Here are the other two.

The essence is the void, the real condition of the individual
and of all phenomena. This base is the condition of all individuals,
whether they are aware of it or not, whether they
are enlightened or in transmigration. It is said to be "pure
from the beginning" (ka dag), because, like space, it is free of
all impediments, and is the basis of all the manifestations in
existence.

The manifestation of the primordial state in all its aspects,
its "clarity," on the other hand, is called the nature. It is said
to be "self-perfected" (lhun grub), because it exists spontaneously
from the beginning, like the sun which shines in
space. Clarity is the pure quality of all thought and of all
perceived phenomena, uncontaminated by mental judgment.
For example, when we see a flower, we first perceive
its image without the mind entering into judgment, even if
this phase of perception only lasts for a fraction of a second.
Then, in a second phase, mental judgment enters into the
situation and one categorizes the perception, thinking,
"That's a flower, it's red, it has a specific scent, and so on."
Developing from this, attachment and aversion, acceptance
and rejection all arise, with the consequent creation of karma and transmigration. Clarity is the phase in which perception
is vivid and present, but the mind has not yet entered
into action. It is the spontaneous manifestation of the
individual's state. The same is true for thoughts: if we don't
follow them, and don't become caught up in mental judgment,
they too are part of our natural clarity.

With the above we also have in Buddhism the Heart Sutra void=form and form=void.

Jesus talks about it like this.

50. Jesus said, "If they say to you, 'Where have you come from?' say to them, 'We have come from the light, from the place where the light came into being by itself, established [itself], and appeared in their image.' If they say to you, 'Is it you?' say, 'We are its children, and we are the chosen of the living Father.' If they ask you, 'What is the evidence of your Father in you?' say to them, 'It is motion and rest.'"

Light being energy, the where the light came into being is emptiness.

Motion=form, rest=void.

All "things" are light.. Buddhist would agree but the true nature of everything is emptiness. The place where the light came into being by itself.

Agreed Buddhists believe that the true nature of everything is emptiness, but Christians believe that the true nature of God is fullness eg. Ephesians 3:19. to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God, also John 1:16
From His fullness we have all received grace upon grace. Completely opposite perceptions of truth. Union with God is fullness, Jesus declared he was in union with God, and he would fill us with living water. Fill. Not empty. There is no sense that Jesus would mean full and empty at the same time.


To me it is saying, we will all be tested, get caught up in our obstructions but there is always a way to let them go.

Just like all the traditions mention, what all the spiritual practices are about.

..........

[sky]

Isn't emptiness fullness, full of potential ?

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by sky123

Isn't emptiness fullness, full of potential ?

:) yes it is

[sky]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

:) yes it is

Just having a coffee break when I read the last few posts. We have been decorating and re-furnishings our living room, it's been emptied out for a few days and now It's full of potential, lot's of space to fill with whatever

[django]

In this emptiness that is full of potential is there room for Jesus and God?