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  #11  
Old 28-01-2019, 07:21 PM
NoOne NoOne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
It's not that plants are more ''vibrating'' than animals. It's got to do with the number of senses a living being has and reducing suffering. Naturally, this means consumption of animal corpses is out of the picture. Animals have more senses than plants so there is more suffering involved, similarly killing a human would be even worse. What carnivores/omnivores don't seem to understand is that their logic would eventually imply that killing and eating humans isn't much of a deal either. Why make the exception with humans..? If animals and plants are equal there's no line between humans and the others either.

But what this ''vibrational food'' is about is practising non-violence. No diet is free of harm, but some do less than others. Not putting the corpse in your body will also be of benefit since your body will feel lighter for spiritual practice. This is why nearly all spiritual practices, minus perhaps prayer and use of drugs to induce hallucination, is accompanied by the advocacy of a vegetarian diet. Sure, humanity have been flesh eaters for much of history but that is beyond the point. We've become a civilized species and there's really no way around that any more. Hunting isn't possible for Joe Average or even sustainable if practised on a mass scale.

And the factory farming is needlessly cruel. Do you know what those animals go through when they're brought to the slaughterhouse. Utter dread and fear.. that long dark journey.. first in the farm, then on the roads, and then in the slaughterhouse. Have you seen fear and stress in animal eyes, up close? It is awful. I have visited a concentration camp in Germany and how we treat animals is so similar to what happened in Europe back then. It is dreadful and I find it profoundly puzzling and bizarre how it is treated as such a minor topic in any spiritual discussion..

I think your objection is to the food chain and the natural world itself. You don't seem to like the fact that all living things must suffer and that most of us are part of the food chain. Even humans get eaten sometimes by other animals. Sure, killing is cruel, but I don't think it matters to any animal, whether it is killed in a slaughterhouse or torn apart and eaten alive by lions or wolves.

Personally, I think the latter is worse. Also, most domesticated animals exist because we raise and eat them. Most would be unable to survive in the natural world and would go extinct pretty quickly if we stopped eating them today. This has already happened to many species that suddenly went out of fashion for one reason or another.

I certainly don't think it is an ideal situation and it would be much better if the natural world contained no suffering, pain and cruelty. Unfortunately, reality is rather different and we have to live in the reality we got, not the one we would like to have.
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  #12  
Old 28-01-2019, 07:26 PM
water drop water drop is offline
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Can a mod delete this thread ?

Last edited by water drop : 29-01-2019 at 10:17 AM.
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  #13  
Old 28-01-2019, 07:40 PM
Altair Altair is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoOne
I think your objection is to the food chain and the natural world itself. You don't seem to like the fact that all living things must suffer and that most of us are part of the food chain.
There's nothing more ''natural'' about killing animals than not killing animals. We can choose not to, and live healthy.. and that conscious choice is what makes me, and anyone else who chooses it, profoundly human too, and part of nature and this world. What other animals do is their nature but humans can make a choice..
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoOne
Personally, I think the latter is worse. Also, most domesticated animals exist because we raise and eat them. Most would be unable to survive in the natural world and would go extinct pretty quickly if we stopped eating them today. This has already happened to many species that suddenly went out of fashion for one reason or another.
They would live on and go feral and be part of rewilding efforts. Their wild equivalents still exists and they would mix with them. Take feral pigs and wild boars, or horses going feral, etc. Or they can become pets. Chickens can be put in gardens.
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  #14  
Old 29-01-2019, 06:29 AM
Gem Gem is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoOne
This isn't going to be a popular opinion here, but all you really need for a healthy diet is meat and fish, supplemented with some seafood. Everything else is superflous, though obviously, it is nice to have a balanced diet and eat different foods. Eskimos have lived exclusively on meat and fish, having never seen a fruit or vegetable in their lives, for tens of thousands of years. On the other hand, no successful society in recorded history or even prehistory has been vegan.




I think the Eskimos ate vegetable matter, especially during summer, and they probably had methods of preserving some of these for the long winter, but I can't find any information on such methods, or indeed, any information written by Inuit people who would know. Suffice to say there was some vegetable matter in their diets - but not very much compared to temperate region populations. It is true that there are no old world vegan societies, and veganism only exists recently in well-to-do developed world populations.
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  #15  
Old 29-01-2019, 07:09 AM
Gem Gem is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by water drop
Thank you noone for the reply - i have my opinion on the issue (Veganism vs carnism) and not denying your opinion on the matter cause i rather avoid a debate on that which might derail this thread -- and you might be completely right about what you wrote (completely write about just meat being good health wise ) -- just now saying to you and everyone cause i didnt say it clearly is that i am looking for the
the best solution (vibration vs nutrition) to implment for my specific diet - and by the replies i can better implement it on my vegan diet (which i am sticking to but not cause of health reasons - and even if its bad to the health)



I follow a very cool vegan on you tube called 'Unnatural Vegan". She says that she doesn't eat vegan for health reasons (she says you can eat healthy on vegitarian and omnivore diets as well) - so she eats vegan for reducing animal suffering and environmental reasons - as well it being a healthy eating option. She is very pragmatic and pleasant and she talks the language of nutrition. I find her videos really enjoyable, and you might find her interesting if you check her channel out.

I'm not a person who concerns myself with vibrations and so on - I only consider nutrition - and from a purely nutritional standpoint it is possible and pretty easy to have a very healthy, complete and balanced vegan diet, so you do not have to compromise your health and fitness - but you have to be rational about nutrients and eat in a nourishing way.

I think the 'appeal to natural' and the 'spiritual vibe' aspects of vegan 'miracle diets' which give rise to fruit diets, fully raw diets and other extreme eating protocols, exclude so many foods that it becomes practically impossible to have a properly balanced diet. There are many people who have done these sorts of diets that ended up becoming ill, like you say, and there are literally thousands of vlogs on You Tube about veganism gone wrong. It seems evident that the risk to benefit ratio of these extreme diets isn't acceptable.


I think the way forward for you and other vegans is to learn about nutrients the body needs and the vegan food that contains them - and eat those foods. Some very qualified vegans to look up include any of these https://nutriciously.com/vegan-doctors/

And check out Unnatural Vegan on you tube. She is funny and smart and fun.

Quote:
(and im asking here in general health cause i want everyone's perspective including people who it meat - about this issue not just vegans - so it is relevant for everyone on carnist diets that include meats and vegetables and dairy and eggs but not relevant to a 100% meat diet)


I consume animal products of all sorts, but also truckloads of fresh vege. My diet is 'omnivorous'. I think it is an 'carnism' is an ideology which supports meat consumption as 'natural' or something. I'm not a carnist because I only support good nutrition, and that can be vegan, vegetarian, or omnivorous, and it depends on individuals' values, circumstances, preferences and so on. You have your uniqueness in these. It is 'good', and you can have a very healthy way of eating without compromising your morals and personal values.

I hope that I have provided rational, sensible, properly qualified information sources for you (and the others), because there is a lot of diet guru hocum out there, and I wouldn't want to see anyone misled.


Much happiness.
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  #16  
Old 29-01-2019, 07:55 AM
Gem Gem is online now
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..........
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  #17  
Old 29-01-2019, 09:00 AM
NoOne NoOne is offline
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I don’t want to delve too deeply into the vegan argument, suffice to say, I go by facts and not ideology. I get the ideological and moral arguments for veganism, I really do. I just think reality intrudes into these ideals quite rudely.

I gave the example of the Eskimos, but anyone who lives anywhere close to nature and doesn’t want to depend ont he global food supply chain, will have to consume some animal products, or they will simply die. Even sustainable agriculture is impossible without animal husbandry.

Then there is the fact that the vast majority of the planet is completely unsuitable for intensive, plant-based agriculture and can only be utilised through grazing, hunting or fishing, and you have a problem if you consign yourself to eating plants and fruits only. Luckily, in our globalised factory-farm Western economy people can survive on a Vegan diet, sometimes for years on end. If that is their wish, fair play to them, I just don’t think it could exist anywhere outside this highly urbanised, metropolitan bubble.
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  #18  
Old 29-01-2019, 09:09 AM
water drop water drop is offline
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nutrition wise im very knowledgeable actually i have zero problems nutrition wise at the way im eating now a good vegan diet - but as i was exposed lately to the idea of viberations than i became intersted in it .... as this is a spiritual forum than i thought people would know about this more

tbh viberation is a pretty wide spread spiritual concept much more than other stuff discussed here in this forum so im suprised people here dont know about it and a high viberation diet

I would appricate if you can delete this thread though (or any other moderator reading this) - and i will either not post it or i will post it in the vegan/vegeterain section - that way will get a clearer debate
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  #19  
Old 29-01-2019, 09:11 AM
water drop water drop is offline
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So please if any moderator reads this please delete this thread
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  #20  
Old 29-01-2019, 11:42 AM
Altair Altair is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoOne

Then there is the fact that the vast majority of the planet is completely unsuitable for intensive, plant-based agriculture and can only be utilised through grazing, hunting or fishing, and you have a problem if you consign yourself to eating plants and fruits only. Luckily, in our globalised factory-farm Western economy people can survive on a Vegan diet, sometimes for years on end. If that is their wish, fair play to them, I just don’t think it could exist anywhere outside this highly urbanised, metropolitan bubble.
It's not a bubble.. modern civilization and agriculture is the norm for the overwhelming majority of humans. Within that context it is more sustainable and animal friendly to drastically reduce dependence upon animal food. That is not a ''bubble''.. In fact, this idea that you can live on a hunter-gatherer lifestyle in today's world, with much diminished wildlife habitat thanks to the meat industry, makes you part of a bubble and a highly specialized minority of people. If billions of people did that there'd be nothing left. Hunter-gatherer societies didn't have billions of people. The human population was small.

Much of nature is needlessly destroyed so people can eat their beef, pork, and chicken. Land that could be simply left alone if we ate differently..
https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2...graphic-01.png
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