Is Spirituality about you and your happiness only?

[Altair]

Originally Posted by JustBe

I actually often read your posts and feel your energy being more in the ‘taking it personal’ vibe. Doesn’t bother me at all, but when I read this, I thought I might make mention. It’s not something recent, I’ve been noticing it for a while when I’m in your vicinity.

I am not surprised you defend him, because you, and a few others here are definitely ''on the same page'' on some issues, particularly when it concerns human nature and a reluctance to acknowledge less convenient aspects of human nature. We've been here before on talks about enlightenment and human nature, I know..

I said this: ''You forgetting your small self and replacing it with a higher self still means you, a doer, an experiencer is in enjoyment.''

Janielee quotes me and says this about it:
''This post reminds me of a group of people eating a cake and one person cursing others angrily - you enjoying this JUST MEANS that.''

Which doesn't even try to address the point I was making... It's a misinterpretation of what I have mentioned in this thread. It seems some people do not want to acknowledge the rather obvious truth about human beings actually being egoistic. Maybe it goes against the grain, maybe it's even blasphemous. Who knows.

To my observation human beings want happiness and joy but if they don't have it themselves they won't like it in others. You have people experiencing just that when they're for example in poverty, in depression, or feel they don't belong in their culture such as guys who turn to religious terrorism. It's always people who see others being happy and not themselves. They see others with the cake but there are no leftovers.

It's a mutual thing.. we take and we give or we give and we take... and we very much do so because we as an individual want happiness, meaning, and purpose in our lives. If this isn't happening than nobody cares about seeing others in joy because it's just outside. The same applies to spirituality. We do x or y (meditation, prayer, etc.) and it makes us calm or peaceful as a result. If it does not achieve this we stop doing it, so again it's about the individual wanting the cake.

If I am incorrect then by all means give an example where it doesn't apply..

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by Altair

I am not surprised you defend him, because you, and a few others here are definitely ''on the same page'' on some issues, particularly when it concerns human nature and a reluctance to acknowledge less convenient aspects of human nature. We've been here before on talks about enlightenment and human nature, I know..

I said this: ''You forgetting your small self and replacing it with a higher self still means you, a doer, an experiencer is in enjoyment.''

Janielee quotes me and says this about it:
''This post reminds me of a group of people eating a cake and one person cursing others angrily - you enjoying this JUST MEANS that.''

Which doesn't even try to address the point I was making... It's a misinterpretation of what I have mentioned in this thread. It seems some people do not want to acknowledge the rather obvious truth about human beings actually being egoistic. Maybe it goes against the grain, maybe it's even blasphemous. Who knows.

To my observation human beings want happiness and joy but if they don't have it themselves they won't like it in others. You have people experiencing just that when they're for example in poverty, in depression, or feel they don't belong in their culture such as guys who turn to religious terrorism. It's always people who see others being happy and not themselves. They see others with the cake but there are no leftovers.

It's a mutual thing.. we take and we give or we give and we take... and we very much do so because we as an individual want happiness, meaning, and purpose in our lives. If this isn't happening than nobody cares about seeing others in joy because it's just outside. The same applies to spirituality. We do x or y (meditation, prayer, etc.) and it makes us calm or peaceful as a result. If it does not achieve this we stop doing it, so again it's about the individual wanting the cake.

If I am incorrect then by all means give an example where it doesn't apply..

Why is there a need for you to assign me under your banner of “defending” him, when all I shared was an observation for you if you were willing to look. I’ve noted you speak from a reactive-‘taking it personal stance’. I’ve felt it in you. It reminds me of the fight or flight response. Your slotting me into a box of your own creation based upon your ideas of where everyone fits into your reality as you perceive them, up against it. Seeing people as they are more clearly requires you as the observer to clear out emotional reactions deeper that may be the catalyst to actually being heard, more authentically. In the immediancy of what you wish to share, there is your little bug bear present rearing it’s head, long before your view is offered. Can I hear you? Oh yes I can hear and feel you? Do I wish to consider your view, while the reaction is going on in you? I can and I do. But sometimes it’s good to clear the way, even if it means speaking up. Of course it takes honest self reflection to look at oneself in this light, even if they feel it’s completly not right. Defensiveness will make you believe all kinds of unreal things about yourself and others. The reality and truth of you, leads you through yourself, to see the truth of others more clearly.

Your rolls eyes shoes me your annoyance. I’m not annoyed, I’m not defending. I’m observing the feeling level in you through some of your posts in a variety of threads. It was felt and is felt even when you address things, more often than not.

The rest is your story, I’m not engaged in it. When your invested in your sharing without the emotional annoyances and fight to defend something your passionate about, I might be interested in what your sharing. Most often reading your sharing (those defensive annoyances are felt in your opening line) it doesn’t make for an invitation to hear what you have to say with that initial stance. It creates an aversion to what you share. Or I’ll just by past your offerings, because it’s too hard to discuss with you beyond you, getting your point across. I know your intelligent and have a lot of insightful things to share, that do deserve a voice and acknowledgement.

Your last line is a turnaround for you.

Is spirituality about you and your happiness only?

No it isn’t. I care about others happiness, I care about my own happiness. I consider others in my growth towards a happier, integrated self aware life one with my own happiness. We all deserve happiness. If I am miserable and depressed and only wish others happiness, and take action towards there’s and not my own, I am very aware that deficit within my own balanced being, will eventually meet me to change that in myself. Otherwise I’m going to elevate others and run on empty myself. That doesn’t make sense to me. Self care is imperative to a quality of life, inclusive of others.

[Altair]

Originally Posted by JustBe

The rest is your story, I’m not engaged in it.

Right... so you just bumped in to unleash a bit of your own frustration..
Well fine! Bit of a shame though, you just managed to write an entire post about me, and not the topic of discussion! (<< And yes, I will use this emoticon.. ha!)

I'm not engaged in your perception of me. You can believe as you please, you are entitled to it. You don't have to like me either.
Just stick to the topic at hand. Lets discuss whether spirituality is all about you and your happiness..

You may not be engaged with my ''story'' but you did enter this thread so you had a peek and probably thought about this topic. That's what matters, so I'm all ears..

Your last line is a turnaround for you.

Is spirituality about you and your happiness only?

No it isn’t. I care about others happiness, I care about my own happiness. I consider others in my growth towards a happier, integrated self aware life one with my own happiness. We all deserve happiness. If I am miserable and depressed and only wish others happiness, and take action towards there’s and not my own, I am very aware that deficit within my own balanced being, will eventually meet me to change that in myself. Otherwise I’m going to elevate others and run on empty myself. That doesn’t make sense to me. Self care is imperative to a quality of life, inclusive of others.

I see you've edited your post..
The bold stuff is key and what I've been saying. We give and receive, or receive and give. Our own happiness stays fundamentally important..
Like you said, elevating others while running empty yourself makes no sense.

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by Altair

Right... so you just bumped in to unleash a bit of your own frustration..
Well fine! Bit of a shame though, you just managed to write an entire post about me, and not the topic of discussion! (<< And yes, I will use this emoticon.. ha!)

I'm not engaged in your perception of me. You can believe as you please, you are entitled to it. You don't have to like me either.
Just stick to the topic at hand. Lets discuss whether spirituality is all about you and your happiness..

You may not be engaged with my ''story'' but you did enter this thread so you had a peek and probably thought about this topic. That's what matters, so I'm all ears..


I see you've edited your post..
The bold stuff is key and what I've been saying. We give and receive, or receive and give. Our own happiness stays fundamentally important..
Like you said, elevating others while running empty yourself makes no sense.

I wasn’t expecting you to respond as you did, but you did.


I felt quite balanced and calm not frustrated, just so your aware your not aware of how I feel.

I responded in this thread long before you did.

This what I shared.

Originally Posted by JustBe

Your post points to my own understanding Lorelyen.

Each individual plays its Own role, walks their own path. We are both individuals and a collective. There is no ‘’my way’ ‘this way’. The way and life is your own., it’s not necessary to project that as the way others should experience themselves and life. We are all unique pieces of the whole creation.

As for service, being myself and understanding myself through many streams of life, allows me to be an aware participant. The roles assigned as to what we should and shouldn’t be doing, is really just about the one who decides this. Spirituality is not about just being of service. Take out labels and people are just doing what they want and can do.

Life is not just about suffering. Life is about everything life is and offers. I prefer my cup full to move and live. So if I dont honour myself, It will catch up with me. Life is about living. Living your life is the dream you create. I like my dreamer self.

And then janielee resoonded to me with this.

I never said it's "just" but this is a theme I see in nearly all religions and spiritual traditions. Interesting that it's not perceived as relevant by you, JustBe

Again we see that he is perceiving it’s not relevant to me. Not me saying it isn’t.

JustBe, I've read a few of your posts (more properly your discussions that always bring forth wisdoms about the way life proceeds, it's flow if you like, and the continual blossoming of awareness as we assimilate our experiences) and one of your big strengths, if you'll pardon me saying so, is your equanimity. "It's how it is."

The question that opened this thread is effectively answered by your commentary. I still believe that spiritual development = self development and this inevitably involves exchange with others, hopefully on more occasions to mutual advantage. Spirituality is still about the aims of the aspirant and - well - equanimity and the level of importance the person attaches to inner peace. Helping others is a more complex question. Is one helping them be lazy? Is one supporting them in times of emotional or financial crisis? Is self-gratification behind a desire to help (in particular circumstances)? Is it just that the aspirant is a naturally charitable person who rushes forward when someone is struggling?
.

Originally Posted by Altair

It's really about the individual, as I see it..

For example, when an individual is sad or depressed they may actively dislike or hate to see other people in happiness, because they too want a slice of the cake.
As long as we can get that slice we are in a luxurious position to claim we are ''selfless''. We then come up with elaborate belief systems about being good people etc.

But what happens if we can't get a slice, and nobody recognizes us? We will have a very hard time to 'love' and to be 'happy' because we want it for ourselves too..

So while it's about the individual others are involved too.


My question was that when other people's happiness is your happiness, what then?

[Altair]

Originally Posted by JustBe

I wasn’t expecting you to respond as you did, but you did.
I felt quite balanced and calm not frustrated, just so your aware your not aware of how I feel.

I did not read that from your energy....

Originally Posted by JustBe

I responded in this thread long before you did.

Didn't noticed, I don't read every post..
I think you come more or less to the same conclusion that spirituality is about your own happiness..
JustBe: '' I prefer my cup full to move and live. So if I dont honour myself, It will catch up with me.''


Anyway.. just read this article.. an interesting read about the folly that is chasing happiness..
Not really related to the more selfish aspect of chasing our happiness but still worthwhile to read..

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ality#comments

Originally Posted by janielee

Agreed.

I remember a phrase, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Altruism on its own has never been too useful, in my opinion. But one solidified with a spiritual sanity - I am a big fan of such people myself. Their "help" is never done with "help" or ego - it is a different way of living IMO.

JL

It's called kamma-vipka in Hinduism. Kamma is intention and kamma-vipaka is the result of intention - but neither positive nor negative. In very short it's the difference between doing something nice to receive a reward or doing something nice because that's just the person you are. Both Lady Diana and Mother Teresa said that it's best to do something nice and not expect a reward. This is where a lot of Spiritual people fall down, because being enlightened and being happy are rewards.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions when it doesn't get past the ideology.

The best way of expressing what you're looking for some from the movies, "Never leave a man behind." We're not at home until we're all home. There's a far greater Spirituality happening when you help others to become more Spiritual because you're doing it for a wider benefit. Similarly with happiness but the ones that tend to work harder for the happiness of others are the ones who have the empathy born of personal experience.

Originally Posted by janielee

I watched After Life (Ricky Gervais) recently. In the last episode someone said "Happiness is important. It doesn't have to be your own"

Seeing joy is nice, IMO.

JL

Sometimes it's all people have and seeing it in others means there's a chance it can happen for us too. It's surprising what can rub off on each other.

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by Altair

I did not read that from your energy....

Didn't noticed, I don't read every post..
I think you come more or less to the same conclusion that spirituality is about your own happiness..
JustBe: '' I prefer my cup full to move and live. So if I dont honour myself, It will catch up with me.''


Anyway.. just read this article.. an interesting read about the folly that is chasing happiness..
Not really related to the more selfish aspect of chasing our happiness but still worthwhile to read..

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ality#comments

Your reading skills need polishing..;)