Living without God.

Your perception creates your reality.

There are some limits on how much perception can affect someone's reality. If I look at a hot coal and perceive it as room temperature coal, it will burn my had if I pick it up regardless of that perception.

If a stranger offers to hold my purse for me and I perceive that as a friendly, helpful gesture, he could still run off with my purse regardless of that perception.

If someone from their own POV regards the spiritual experiences others have had that involve the subjective sense of the presence of a being that they believe is God as false, the way that person sees it does not change even if I decide to perceive him as openminded anyway. And the way people actually see things is reflected by the way they communicate. So when people see someone state that there is absolute proof of a spiritual matter, such as that God is not on earth, even though some people out there believe God is everywhere due to profound spiritual experiences, the perception that this person sees those who believe that God is everywhere as being wrong is not an inaccurate perception.

I see some "I believe", and "as I see it", but when the person also includes that something is a sure sign or absolute proof of a spiritual matter that some people believe very differently about there is still beliefs stated as if they were fact, which naturally those who believe very differently are likely to have an objection to how they feel they are being regarded. Some people strongly believe God is here, for their own reasons. This belief is important to them. So I think it could make a big difference in communication to keep this in mind and keep in mind that referring to a spiritual matter as something that is a sure thing or absolutely proven can naturally lead to difficulties in communication when people who believe completely differently are a part of the conversation.

Originally Posted by mickiel

I think God has only visted the earth twice; he was here in the garden of Eden with Adam and Eve, the first humans with Consciousness; and he appeared once to Moses. I think thats it.

So I take it God wasn't actually present, when God closed the door on the ark so that Noah, his family and all the animals could be safe from the flood? Assuming of course, that part of the Bible actually happened

Belief what is said in bible is true when you experience it. Which cannot be done. It is belief, rather than experiencing these truths of the holy spirit, or your being. The bible cannot be true unless it is experienced.

God, "the word" is way too contextually loaded. I'd say give it up totally, all the labels, manifestations, archetypes, interpretations. Don't believe anyone's dogma, rhetoric, story or myth.

Find your own TRUTH, your SOURCE intelligence..walk your path, your vision quest.

[Moonglow]

Originally Posted by mickiel

I think all the things that humans are doing, good or bad, they are doing themselves. When God does Good, it never ends and it benefits everybody. There is no pure Good on earth in my view, so yes, my view of humanity is dim. I don't think we could make it without God.

And I know that God knows that. Which is why I have hope for humanity; but that hope is not based on humanitys goodness, its based on Gods goodness. But until God returns, we walk on our own goodness- which is why that goodness is weak and unable to substain peace.

Hello mickiel,

Thank you for the response.

I can agree that one is responsible for ones action, but one may not always be aware of the effects or consequences of such action. To me, we are given free will, which enables us to make choices. With these choices comes consequences, which are the reactions to the choice.

Do you feel we (generally speaking/humans) have free will?

If so then, to you, does this free will take Gods' involvement in our actions out of the picture? If so, then how does God, in your opinion, view this?

Is God to you some sort of separate entity? For, to me, this seems to be implied when stating God is not here and will return. How do you feel this will occur?

For what still has me curious is if God is the creator of all we know then what may be termed good and bad is also of Gods' creation. Taking this premiss. Do you see how this can contradict what you present that God is not here and it is just us (again generally/humans) creating this?

Could it be God is working through and with us, therefore very present?

Peace

[Swami Chihuahuananda]

???? !!!!!!!

[Swami Chihuahuananda]

I think that assuming separation is our first mistake . Maybe that can be analogized into something like original sin, if you need to correlate anything I say with some kind of Christian models. Anymore , I can't really look at things as being separated; not creation from the creative , not alive from dead , not here from there , none of it. The simplest way to say it is of having a sense of One , so any question of with or without 'God' is bypassed . lIving at a point along the journey whre we are still able to experience the illusion of separation (from God, or Nirvana, or some other ideal , or state of being) , sure, it's obvious that we are 'here' and experiencing that , but it's also kinda obvious that this solid reality isn't so solid and isn't all there is. But what if it's all here, what if we are the windows into the all ?. Something like that. Again , and I will keep saying it because it's a good one : you are the universe expressing itself as a single point .

(^8
Dar

(thank you, spiritual forums auto-moderator )

[mickiel]

Originally Posted by arive nan

Mickiel, the things you are stating are your beliefs. No matter how strongly you believe them, they are beliefs. And these are beliefs about a matter that people have a very wide variety of different beliefs about, and people can believe very strongly in their widely varying and differing beliefs about the matter.

And often the reason why someone believes strongly in what they believe about the matter is because it is important to them. They may have had profound experiences and the beliefs that resulted from those experiences are what give them strength, hope, a feeling of peace, etc. They may have spent a great deal of time studying the matter and working out a point of view that makes sense to them, which allows them to feel that the way they view the matter makes sense to them, and that can be very important to people.

Here's some examples of the varying beliefs about the matter that people can feel very strongly about and that can be very important to them:

- There is no God
- There is one God
- There is more than one God
- God loves everyone
- God punishes some people
- That being I felt the presence of during that amazing, life-changing spiritual experience is God
- God is everywhere
- Some places are devoid of God
- God was the cause of [insert event]
- God didn't cause [insert same or different event]

And I'll say again that any one of these can be quite important to the person who has that belief or point of view.

So, when you state your beliefs as if they are facts, as if they apply to everyone, as if anyone who believes differently is wrong, as if that's just the way the world implying that anyone who believes the world is a different way for any reason is just wrong..... you end up basically telling some people that what they believe and the way they see the world is incorrect as if that is a fact... even though these are unavoidably your beliefs about God. The people who have different, sometimes opposite beliefs or POVs are naturally likely to perceive that their beliefs are being disrespected by this.

It can make a world of difference in you communications with others to state beliefs as beliefs, not as facts.

Well your point is well taken; these are my beliefs. I present many of them as if they are facts, because they " Are facts- to me." I have neglected saying that more often than I should, but they are taken as " Facts to me."

You know, I wouldnot even strongly voice these kinds of things if I didnot believe them to be factual; and I most certainly do. Whatever anyone strongly believes, they should view them as facts, " IF" they have proved them to themselves; and I have done that for myself. If it is not a fact, but just a belief, then in my view that should be voiced as well, and I try to do that my stating " This is my View."

But I do understand your point.

[mickiel]

Originally Posted by Moonglow

Hello mickiel,

Thank you for the response.

I can agree that one is responsible for ones action, but one may not always be aware of the effects or consequences of such action. To me, we are given free will, which enables us to make choices. With these choices comes consequences, which are the reactions to the choice.

Do you feel we (generally speaking/humans) have free will?quote


Greetings;
No, I do not believe in free will, I believe that human will is limited, but certainly not free. My definition of free will, is a will that is not influenced by any outside forces, and I view that as impossible with the human will, because we are just to influenced by outside forces. So I think we have a " Limited, influenced will.


quote;
If so then, to you, does this free will take Gods' involvement in our actions out of the picture? If so, then how does God, in your opinion, view this?

Is God to you some sort of separate entity? For, to me, this seems to be implied when stating God is not here and will return. How do you feel this will occur?quote;

I think all of Gods involvement with humanity has been predetermined already by God and that human history has simply been " The unfolding of Gods will, not the unfolding of human will." I think God only concerns himself with human actions when he wants to manipulate it according to his will; all other areas of human action or will does not concern him. And I believe that God will return by comming down from space, in the air, and that every human will see this event.


Quote;
For what still has me curious is if God is the creator of all we know then what may be termed good and bad is also of Gods' creation. Taking this premiss. Do you see how this can contradict what you present that God is not here and it is just us (again generally/humans) creating this?

Could it be God is working through and with us, therefore very present?

Peace

I think God most certainly has created both good and evil, and that he most certainly will use humans , or work through humans; BUT; I think he did that work through humans " In the Past"; I believe that he himself will do most of the work he will do in the comming future. I think he may use a few humans in the future, but a very few. I think God is going to increasingly become more " Self- Active", and actually use one of his Holy Spirits to actually lead a comming small group of people that the bible calls " Firstfruits."

But I think one needs to understand that God, because of his power, does not have to be " Present on earth", in order to work with or through someone who is on earth.

But thats a whole different yet interesting topic.

Peace.

edited by staff