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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > General Beliefs

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  #1  
Old 19-01-2020, 08:32 AM
Busby Busby is offline
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CONCORDE crash and Karma

Most of us can remember that day in the year 2000 when we watched the video of the Concorde burning after its start from Charles de Gaulle airport in Paris. It crash-landed seconds after dropping uncontrolled onto a set of restaurant buildings where 4 people were killed. 109 passengers and crew were killed and of course the pain this caused many other people cannot be accounted.
The cause of this crash was quickly known: a Continental Arlines machine had lost part of an engine - a strip of metal from a thrust reverser - one made of alloy instead of stainless steel as demanded by the manufacturer. This strip punctured a tyre of the Concorde and a piece of blown-off rubber then punctured a fuel tank releasing this liquid which then inflamed.

I've long been pondering how to reconcile this crash and the resulting mayhem with karma.

With our understanding of karma - and there are really many variations of this understanding, we are stuck at the accident or karma path.

So where, if anywhere, did karma play a role in this and if it didn't where and how do we decide that there is this thing called karma.

Basically that person who fitted the wrong strip to the Continental Airlines machine is the first culprit - but he didn't make the strip - which just adds to the problem of where did it all start.

However we must not forget that;
All those passengers voluntarily bought a ticket for this aeroplane.
The crew followed a rota prepared by a backroom person or persons, so probably made no personal choice.
Those four restaurant persons were on the spot so to speak when the aeroplane crashed. They must have been employed there by some 'force' to have been there when the plane hit - 'karma' must have played its part.

There are other points which play a part but we can ask ourselves 'accident or reaping what has been sown'?

If we look upon this crash as a pure accident then there's not much more to be said.
But if you see (as some people apparently do) this as a karmic event then it needs a lot of explaining. You will have to agree that if you plump on the side of 'karmic event' then this crash must have been pre-determined.
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  #2  
Old 19-01-2020, 08:57 AM
sky123 sky123 is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 8,163
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busby
Most of us can remember that day in the year 2000 when we watched the video of the Concorde burning after its start from Charles de Gaulle airport in Paris. It crash-landed seconds after dropping uncontrolled onto a set of restaurant buildings where 4 people were killed. 109 passengers and crew were killed and of course the pain this caused many other people cannot be accounted.
The cause of this crash was quickly known: a Continental Arlines machine had lost part of an engine - a strip of metal from a thrust reverser - one made of alloy instead of stainless steel as demanded by the manufacturer. This strip punctured a tyre of the Concorde and a piece of blown-off rubber then punctured a fuel tank releasing this liquid which then inflamed.

I've long been pondering how to reconcile this crash and the resulting mayhem with karma.

With our understanding of karma - and there are really many variations of this understanding, we are stuck at the accident or karma path.

So where, if anywhere, did karma play a role in this and if it didn't where and how do we decide that there is this thing called karma.

Basically that person who fitted the wrong strip to the Continental Airlines machine is the first culprit - but he didn't make the strip - which just adds to the problem of where did it all start.

However we must not forget that;
All those passengers voluntarily bought a ticket for this aeroplane.
The crew followed a rota prepared by a backroom person or persons, so probably made no personal choice.
Those four restaurant persons were on the spot so to speak when the aeroplane crashed. They must have been employed there by some 'force' to have been there when the plane hit - 'karma' must have played its part.

There are other points which play a part but we can ask ourselves 'accident or reaping what has been sown'?

If we look upon this crash as a pure accident then there's not much more to be said.
But if you see (as some people apparently do) this as a karmic event then it needs a lot of explaining. You will have to agree that if you plump on the side of 'karmic event' then this crash must have been pre-determined.


Karma is Cause and effect, wrong strip-cause... accident - effect...
Karma is neither Punishment nor Reward...
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  #3  
Old 19-01-2020, 07:47 PM
inavalan inavalan is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,931
 
Thought precedes action. Thought causes action. Thought eventually materializes in situations that tend to perpetuate thought.

On the other hand death just happens, and has to happen. It has impact on the thoughts of those who remain behind, not on those that passed on.

Earthly life isn't a purpose in itself. It is a temporary state, through which each soul goes many times.

The resulting anger had a negative karmic effect on those who fell pray to it.
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Everything expressed here is what I believe. Keep that in mind when you read my post, as I kept it in mind when I wrote it. I don't parrot others. Most of my spiritual beliefs come from direct channeling guidance. I have no interest in arguing whose belief is right, and whose is wrong. I'm here just to express my opinions, and read about others'.
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  #4  
Old 19-01-2020, 07:50 PM
janielee janielee is offline
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Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 2,785
 
To echo what sky123 said

And it is karma that led/leads everyone to where they are, even to think what they do.

Some spiritual traditions, allow one to influence karma.

Jl
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  #5  
Old 20-01-2020, 01:12 AM
iamthat iamthat is offline
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Location: Golden Bay, New Zealand
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I prefer the idea of such events being karmic in nature rather than random accidents. But if such a crash is a karmic event then it does need explaining. As Busby says, the karmic explanation implies that the crash was always predetermined and the people who were on that flight and in that restaurant were always going to perish in that way at that time.

Which raises a lot of questions, including the old favourite about Soul decisions made before incarnating. The fact that the crew made no personal choice to be on the rota for that particular flight does not negate the possibility of such decisions having been made by each Soul.

What karmic purpose would be served by a group of over 100 people dying together in this manner? Who knows, but when we consider all the grieving families and friends then there would have been huge lessons to be learned by everyone involved.

What I find interesting about such events is the people who intended to be present but weren't, or vice versa. For example, the person who might have booked a seat but then got held up in traffic and missed the flight. (Or conversely, the person on stand-by who is told at the last minute that a seat is available.) Or the person who wakes up with a bad feeling about the flight and decides to cancel their ticket. Or a diner in the restaurant who decides to take a table in a certain area and so they escape alive. Or the person who should have been working in the restaurant but decides to nip outside for a cigarette break and thus survives.

These are all imaginary scenarios, but there must be many such real-life events in these disasters. Is there some divine intelligence orchestrating where everyone happens to be at the critical moment?

I don't have the answers but it certainly raises questions.

Peace
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  #6  
Old 20-01-2020, 02:53 AM
BigJohn BigJohn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthat
I prefer the idea of such events being karmic in nature rather than random accidents. But if such a crash is a karmic event then it does need explaining. As Busby says, the karmic explanation implies that the crash was always predetermined and the people who were on that flight and in that restaurant were always going to perish in that way at that time.

Which raises a lot of questions, including the old favourite about Soul decisions made before incarnating. The fact that the crew made no personal choice to be on the rota for that particular flight does not negate the possibility of such decisions having been made by each Soul.

What karmic purpose would be served by a group of over 100 people dying together in this manner? Who knows, but when we consider all the grieving families and friends then there would have been huge lessons to be learned by everyone involved.

What I find interesting about such events is the people who intended to be present but weren't, or vice versa. For example, the person who might have booked a seat but then got held up in traffic and missed the flight. (Or conversely, the person on stand-by who is told at the last minute that a seat is available.) Or the person who wakes up with a bad feeling about the flight and decides to cancel their ticket. Or a diner in the restaurant who decides to take a table in a certain area and so they escape alive. Or the person who should have been working in the restaurant but decides to nip outside for a cigarette break and thus survives.

These are all imaginary scenarios, but there must be many such real-life events in these disasters. Is there some divine intelligence orchestrating where everyone happens to be at the critical moment?

I don't have the answers but it certainly raises questions.

Peace
I was on an airplane that left Taiwan. Another plane, from the same airline, left shortly afterwards. That plane got about 35,000 feet when it imploded. Boeing did not do a good job on their upgrade. Everybody died. When I heard about it, they first thought a missile had hit the jet.
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He dipped the pen into the ink and then faltered for just a second. A tremor had gone through his bowels. To mark the paper was the decisive act. In small clumsy letters he wrote: ........... April 4th, 1984.
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  #7  
Old 20-01-2020, 04:48 AM
ajay00 ajay00 is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 982
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busby
Most of us can remember that day in the year 2000 when we watched the video of the Concorde burning after its start from Charles de Gaulle airport in Paris. It crash-landed seconds after dropping uncontrolled onto a set of restaurant buildings where 4 people were killed. 109 passengers and crew were killed and of course the pain this caused many other people cannot be accounted.
The cause of this crash was quickly known: a Continental Arlines machine had lost part of an engine - a strip of metal from a thrust reverser - one made of alloy instead of stainless steel as demanded by the manufacturer. This strip punctured a tyre of the Concorde and a piece of blown-off rubber then punctured a fuel tank releasing this liquid which then inflamed.

I've long been pondering how to reconcile this crash and the resulting mayhem with karma.

With our understanding of karma - and there are really many variations of this understanding, we are stuck at the accident or karma path.

So where, if anywhere, did karma play a role in this and if it didn't where and how do we decide that there is this thing called karma.

Basically that person who fitted the wrong strip to the Continental Airlines machine is the first culprit - but he didn't make the strip - which just adds to the problem of where did it all start.

However we must not forget that;
All those passengers voluntarily bought a ticket for this aeroplane.
The crew followed a rota prepared by a backroom person or persons, so probably made no personal choice.
Those four restaurant persons were on the spot so to speak when the aeroplane crashed. They must have been employed there by some 'force' to have been there when the plane hit - 'karma' must have played its part.

There are other points which play a part but we can ask ourselves 'accident or reaping what has been sown'?

If we look upon this crash as a pure accident then there's not much more to be said.
But if you see (as some people apparently do) this as a karmic event then it needs a lot of explaining. You will have to agree that if you plump on the side of 'karmic event' then this crash must have been pre-determined.

All such incidents are very tragic and painful. But good karma is also about precise workmanship and quality management.

The precise sequence of cause and effect must be respected and honored. A doctor who does not administer medicine to his ailing patient in time will incur bad karma for himself, as does a policeman who shirks from his duty in maintaining law and order out of laziness or cowardice.

As Gustav Mahler stated, "All that is not perfect down to the smallest detail is doomed to perish.
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Evil is an extreme manifestation of human unconsciousness. -- Eckhart Tolle
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  #8  
Old 20-01-2020, 12:51 PM
Greenslade Greenslade is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Busby
I've long been pondering how to reconcile this crash and the resulting mayhem with karma.

With our understanding of karma - and there are really many variations of this understanding, we are stuck at the accident or karma path.
Perhaps you're looking for external agency, which is some kind of external force that directs our fate/destiny. I guess karma has taken over the job that the gods were responsible for. It was God's Will.

Going back to the original Sanskrit, 'karma' simply means 'action', then later it was changed to become cause and effect. It's 'mechanical', simply a series of events one after the other. The other factor that isn't taken into account with psuedo-karma is time. For Spirit, time doesn't exist so how does that affect karma? When all of time is happening all of the time, and all of time affects all of time all of the time? Psuedo-karma is only cause and effect because of our linear perception of time.

If you're discussing "reaping what has been sown" then what you should be looking at is kamma-vipaka. Kamma is intention and vipaka is the 'results' - which is what most people mean when discussing karma. Basically, if you do a good deed to gain a reward then what you will receive in return is on an equal level, vibrationally - the vibration of greed. If you intend to do a good deed with no thought of reward, that attracts higher-vibration 'returns'.

The crash was caused by the faulty part, in the case of karma you could go back to the manufacturer who supplied it and simply follow the chain of cause and effect, or better yet the people that caused the chain. Cause and effect doesn't happen on its own.

Everybody on that plane or involved with the crash in some way would also have had a Life's Purpose, if you want to come up with rhyme and reason for it. They would have made a Karmic Agreement to be on that plane and/or guide the events that led up to the crash, and personally I find that more plausible than any definition of karma beyond cause and effect. Karmic Obligations for me implies a modicum of Free Will at least whereas so-called karma implies reward/punishment mentality. And it takes care of the "pre-determined". For those that aren't keen on pre-determined, all the Spirits who decided to reincarnate and get on the plane would have had at least knowledge it was going to happen, to Spirit all of time is happening all of the time so Spirit would have known the results prior to reincarnation.

If you're trying to reconcile the crash with karma, perhaps a question that would lead to a better understanding is what are your reasons?
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  #9  
Old 21-01-2020, 08:03 AM
Busby Busby is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,107
 
At least iamthat shows that his brain works.

When we believe something it doesn't necessarily mean that it is true - as far as we know what 'true' could or might be.
If you/we believe that karma can organise itself in such manifold ways we badly need to define the software running the karma programme and so get the low down on the whole thing.

Anyway, we can now add to the list of all those things caused by us which have led the force of karma to lead to results of all kinds,
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What dreams may come when we have shuffled off this mortal coil.
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What does a frog in a pond know of the world's oceans??

Last edited by Native spirit : 22-01-2020 at 11:51 AM.
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  #10  
Old 21-01-2020, 12:01 PM
Greenslade Greenslade is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JosephineBloggs
As Sheldon would say, bam!
I wonder what would happen if people spent more time formulating questions rather than coming up with answers that have no question.
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