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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Spirituality

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  #1  
Old 21-11-2019, 07:31 AM
paragon paragon is offline
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No spiritual consolation or progress whatsoever

Hi everyone, thank you for clicking.

There is a concept in Catholicism where certain souls receive absolutely no consolation/signs/feedback from God, and when they seek any sort of spiritual reassurance they face nothing but an empty void. It's supposedly a higher path because the person is learning trust/faith in God without having any evidence whatsoever to back up their faith.

Does this concept exist in non-religious spiritual thinking? The only person I have ever heard mention it is Matt Kahn, but he doesn't say a lot about it. I ask because it feels like this is my path. I was born into a completely atheist family and had a brief, frightening spiritual experience at age 13 which was just enough to make me aware that a spiritual world existed and set me on this path. But before and since then, I've had absolutely nothing.

I've seen other people convert from atheism years and years after me, then have full-on apparitions and profound spiritual ecstasies, but still nothing for me. Of course, I don't seek apparitions nor any sort of spiritual experience for its own sake, but simply to get answers/guidance for my own life's purpose. I couldn't care less if I never have an apparition, I just want to move forward in my physical and spiritual life and hopefully attain some degree of peace. If I pray for something it gets ignored, but I've known others who can pray for something then have it parachute into their backyard the following day, probably with one of those little red gift ribbons attached to it. And a little card signed "lol, here's your washing machine - love God." They can even pray for me with some degree of success, and certainly more success than I have praying for myself.

All avenues of spiritual progress seem to be blocked off, too. Meditation is impossible for me because of my ADHD brain (yes I know we all feel like that, but for me it REALLY is impossible. I have a serious concentration problem.) Energy healing modalities that claim a near 100% success rate have a literal success rate of 0% on me. Sometimes they help, but the healing never lasts. Strangely enough, I do healings on others and get great results - but the same healing does not work on me. Self-muscle testing never works for me, and pendulums do give me yes and no answers, but the answers to the same questions change on a daily basis and can never be relied upon - hence another potential avenue of great spiritual insight is blocked off.

Anyone else feel like this? Anyone else heard of this concept in a non-religious context?

I would love to think this concept is merely a self-imposed limiting belief, but here I am years after beginning my spiritual journey and all of the metrics by which anyone would measure their progress in life - happiness, peace, love, finance etc. are exactly where they were at the beginning of my journey or worse. Even at the times when I felt somewhat confident with my spiritual trajectory, I did not make even an inch of progress and I ended up back where I started. One energy healer thought I had some sort ancestral curse, but no intuitives I've ever asked have been able to find any such thing.

Thank you very much for reading, I appreciate your time. I hope someone out there has some useful thoughts.
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  #2  
Old 21-11-2019, 08:07 AM
JustBe JustBe is offline
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Hello

Firstly complete trust in the unknown without containing yourself is something I’ve come to build over the time of my spiritual process.

The paths we choose to discover and understand ourselves and the world around us can be an interchangeable choice and process.

If something is not working for you, it’s often wise to turn your belief in that lack into a positive mindset. “I haven’t discovered it yet”.

One thing many people forget on this journey, is that the life experience itself as a whole, opens us to learn and grow, understand who we truly are beyond our own conditioning and beliefs.

Understanding clarity through the unknown as an ‘unfolding’ rather than a fixed point, is often a major lesson for those who are being asked to trust fully in themselves and the process of their life.
That trust even as things are not as you want or wish becomes the lesson.

One thing in positive light that you mentioned,is that you have good success when helping others.

The path of service to self and others in this way can open you to experiences that others go through, this if your open to without your limiting belief can be a catalyst to open you.

So I see it’s a positive way forward. “When I help others,I help myself”

This could be a call to take that awareness more seriously for yourself and others. I don’t like using the word calling. But for you I will..
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“Within you is the light of one thousand suns-Robert Adams
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  #3  
Old 21-11-2019, 08:12 AM
paragon paragon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustBe
The path of service to self and others in this way can open you to experiences that others go through, this if your open to without your limiting belief can be a catalyst to open you.

So I see it’s a positive way forward. “When I help others,I help myself”

This could be a call to take that awareness more seriously for yourself and others. I don’t like using the word calling. But for you I will..

Thank you very much for your kind response. I like this idea and have considered it a number of times. It's just difficult to totally devote myself to others when I'm in pain-minimisation mode most of the time. It makes me very self absorbed. But I think this is a potential way forward, especially since trying to help myself doesn't work. Thank you
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  #4  
Old 21-11-2019, 10:38 AM
JustASimpleGuy JustASimpleGuy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paragon
Thank you very much for your kind response. I like this idea and have considered it a number of times. It's just difficult to totally devote myself to others when I'm in pain-minimisation mode most of the time. It makes me very self absorbed. But I think this is a potential way forward, especially since trying to help myself doesn't work. Thank you

Might want to give this a read. It's not about totally devoting yourself to others but totally devoting yourself to God through every action, and that includes not only action towards others but action for yourself and even your thoughts. Since the purpose of everything you do and think is a devotion to God it can't be for selfish reasons as it's all in the service of God.

That's not to say it's easy, but what spiritual path is?

The Path of Work – Karma Yoga

https://vedanta.org/yoga-spiritual-p...rk-karma-yoga/
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"Research your own experience; absorb what is useful, reject what is useless and add what is essentially your own." ~ Bruce Lee

"Of a certainty the man who can see all creatures in himself, himself in all creatures, knows no sorrow." ~ Upanishads

https://tinyurl.com/y2mxr4s2 My YouTube Channel

JASG
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  #5  
Old 21-11-2019, 11:11 AM
paragon paragon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy
Might want to give this a read. It's not about totally devoting yourself to others but totally devoting yourself to God through every action, and that includes not only action towards others but action for yourself and even your thoughts. Since the purpose of everything you do and think is a devotion to God it can't be for selfish reasons as it's all in the service of God.

That's not to say it's easy, but what spiritual path is?

The Path of Work – Karma Yoga

https://vedanta.org/yoga-spiritual-p...rk-karma-yoga/

Thank you, I will have a look!
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  #6  
Old 21-11-2019, 12:12 PM
JustBe JustBe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paragon
Thank you very much for your kind response. I like this idea and have considered it a number of times. It's just difficult to totally devote myself to others when I'm in pain-minimisation mode most of the time. It makes me very self absorbed. But I think this is a potential way forward, especially since trying to help myself doesn't work. Thank you

It’s not really about devotion to others but an awareness to allow yourself in the day to day life experience and others to support opening you deeper and make your own connections that way. It’s debeloping an awareness that you can make life itself the practice to explore and discover things in various ways.

The way you process things with adhd makes you unique as well, so it’s findjng what works for you, not necessarily the way others may gain results through.

In doing what you “love” you naturally gain in lots of ways of your life. So if you enjoy art, energy work, walkingbin nature or even sky diving..it’s everythjng you enjoy.
And what you love to do can be a the path of creativity, sharing, learning and exploring and spirituality as one.

Sometimes things open in unexpected ways. We think they come through experiences related to spiritual practices, but great insights and wisdom can come through anything.

The other thing is letting go of what has been and hasn’t worked. That’s done and dusted. Change your attitude to one of openness and expect the unexpected. Be curious and navigate the waters without any need or desire, but rather an attitude of “I’m open” and ready..
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“Within you is the light of one thousand suns-Robert Adams
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  #7  
Old 21-11-2019, 11:36 PM
paragon paragon is offline
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Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 95
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustBe
It’s not really about devotion to others but an awareness to allow yourself in the day to day life experience and others to support opening you deeper and make your own connections that way. It’s debeloping an awareness that you can make life itself the practice to explore and discover things in various ways.

The way you process things with adhd makes you unique as well, so it’s findjng what works for you, not necessarily the way others may gain results through.

In doing what you “love” you naturally gain in lots of ways of your life. So if you enjoy art, energy work, walkingbin nature or even sky diving..it’s everythjng you enjoy.
And what you love to do can be a the path of creativity, sharing, learning and exploring and spirituality as one.

Sometimes things open in unexpected ways. We think they come through experiences related to spiritual practices, but great insights and wisdom can come through anything.

The other thing is letting go of what has been and hasn’t worked. That’s done and dusted. Change your attitude to one of openness and expect the unexpected. Be curious and navigate the waters without any need or desire, but rather an attitude of “I’m open” and ready..

Thanks. What you write is probably the way I would like to live my life, but I also have crippling social anxiety and fear of everything, hence the need to chase effective healings. I think most people like me probably end up on drugs, so I guess I've done pretty well just to maintain my slender grip on reality. I couldn't have done it without the friendship of my collection of singing potatoes.
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  #8  
Old 22-11-2019, 12:38 AM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 10,469
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paragon
Hi everyone, thank you for clicking.

There is a concept in Catholicism where certain souls receive absolutely no consolation/signs/feedback from God, and when they seek any sort of spiritual reassurance they face nothing but an empty void. It's supposedly a higher path because the person is learning trust/faith in God without having any evidence whatsoever to back up their faith.

Does this concept exist in non-religious spiritual thinking? The only person I have ever heard mention it is Matt Kahn, but he doesn't say a lot about it. I ask because it feels like this is my path. I was born into a completely atheist family and had a brief, frightening spiritual experience at age 13 which was just enough to make me aware that a spiritual world existed and set me on this path. But before and since then, I've had absolutely nothing.

I've seen other people convert from atheism years and years after me, then have full-on apparitions and profound spiritual ecstasies, but still nothing for me. Of course, I don't seek apparitions nor any sort of spiritual experience for its own sake, but simply to get answers/guidance for my own life's purpose. I couldn't care less if I never have an apparition, I just want to move forward in my physical and spiritual life and hopefully attain some degree of peace. If I pray for something it gets ignored, but I've known others who can pray for something then have it parachute into their backyard the following day, probably with one of those little red gift ribbons attached to it. And a little card signed "lol, here's your washing machine - love God." They can even pray for me with some degree of success, and certainly more success than I have praying for myself.

All avenues of spiritual progress seem to be blocked off, too. Meditation is impossible for me because of my ADHD brain (yes I know we all feel like that, but for me it REALLY is impossible. I have a serious concentration problem.) Energy healing modalities that claim a near 100% success rate have a literal success rate of 0% on me. Sometimes they help, but the healing never lasts. Strangely enough, I do healings on others and get great results - but the same healing does not work on me. Self-muscle testing never works for me, and pendulums do give me yes and no answers, but the answers to the same questions change on a daily basis and can never be relied upon - hence another potential avenue of great spiritual insight is blocked off.

Anyone else feel like this? Anyone else heard of this concept in a non-religious context?

I would love to think this concept is merely a self-imposed limiting belief, but here I am years after beginning my spiritual journey and all of the metrics by which anyone would measure their progress in life - happiness, peace, love, finance etc. are exactly where they were at the beginning of my journey or worse. Even at the times when I felt somewhat confident with my spiritual trajectory, I did not make even an inch of progress and I ended up back where I started. One energy healer thought I had some sort ancestral curse, but no intuitives I've ever asked have been able to find any such thing.

Thank you very much for reading, I appreciate your time. I hope someone out there has some useful thoughts.
If you seek an explanation for this, you may also like to consider karma and most notably, residual karma from previous births.

Those whose prayers are always answered, would have been very pious and generous in a previous life and those who are doing it tough in this life, were perhaps not so nice in a previous life.

However, reading through your posts, I cannot help but notice the usage of negative and self defeating words and expressions...this is entirely understandable when you are trying to control the outcome of a certain event and it fails about a dozen times successively, so the programming of the subconscious (and conscious) mind is led to believe that this will NEVER work and so you are doomed to failure even before you start...this is called "learned helplessness" and it is a terrible hole to try and dig oneself out of...I KNOW! because you have that little Jiminy Cricket with horns and pitchfork sitting on your left shoulder going "well, that's never gonna work...remember the last time we tried this...and failed?" and comparing yourself to others don't work either...that only adds fuel to the fire and brings about feelings of resentment, guilt and unworthiness "why do all the good things happen to bad people and all the bad things happen to good people?" Well, that's just the way people in that hole see the world.

As harsh as it sounds, expectations only lead to disappointments. Those who have a washing machine drop in their backyard after praying for one would have probably not expected that would ever happen....if others knew their prayers would always get answered, why aren't they all billionaires by now, living in a condo in Maui and owning a fleet of BMWs? Think about it.

So "what can I do?" you ask?

It sounds like you not only have social anxiety, but also depression...there are people out there who can help with that...why, my peer support worker is coming with me to yoga classes each week to make sure I go and stop chickening out due to the fact there are "other people" there who are not judging me because, in all honesty, they have much better things to think about.

With the prayers, start small...very small "Dear Lord, can you stop me forgetting where I put my car keys and reading glasses? That would be awesome if you could help me do that..." you may find that someone will give you a bottle of Gingko Biloba out of the blue and you will go "what the heck do I need THAT for?" So, the trick is in also recognising when your prayers ARE being answered, just not in any damn way that you would ever expect in a million years...and that always happens to me...and the solution God comes up with is so "out there" but works far better than anything I could have envisioned myself as being a "satisfactory prayer response"...you just need to be open to it without putting any condition or limitation on it...and this takes lifetimes of practice in some cases.
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  #9  
Old 22-11-2019, 09:08 AM
JustBe JustBe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paragon
Thanks. What you write is probably the way I would like to live my life, but I also have crippling social anxiety and fear of everything, hence the need to chase effective healings. I think most people like me probably end up on drugs, so I guess I've done pretty well just to maintain my slender grip on reality. I couldn't have done it without the friendship of my collection of singing potatoes.

I understand I was once crippled y anxiety and fear.

It’s taken me nearly half my life to break free.

Small steps helps. You can’t rush progress, but look st the little breakthroughs you’ve had, even if ‘not enough’.

Having good friends helps. I’m a bit envious you have Singing potatoes..
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“Within you is the light of one thousand suns-Robert Adams
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  #10  
Old 22-11-2019, 05:08 PM
Altair Altair is offline
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Not to be a downer here, but I think spiritual progress isn't possible for most people. If you pay attention you can spot a bias in spiritual communities.. there are loads of people that are retired, work part time, or are students. Or they have stress free jobs like being a dentist or any job that is easy to leave behind when you go home. Not to mention the stress of taking care of a partner and kids, and the worries that come from that [can see that in my older siblings for years now]. For most people, spirituality is just not on their minds and they have little to no opportunity to achieve any sort of progress.

You could potentially meditate the rest of your life, every day for an hour or so, and not see any apparition or experience anything substantial whatsoever [besides basic benefits such as improved breathing, relaxation, and psychological awareness]. Anyone and their dog can achieve those things, but an actual spiritual experience is also probably not something you can just induce at will..
Quote:

Energy healing modalities that claim a near 100% success rate have a literal success rate of 0% on me. Sometimes they help, but the healing never lasts.

Sorry, but maybe it wasn't really healing to begin with. I've had people try to heal my migraines but it doesn't work, lol, even if I start believing that they have the power to heal. The physical world is fukking real. You can't cure migraine with healing hands or cancer with a water fast.
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