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Old 16-01-2020, 07:21 PM
BigJohn BigJohn is offline
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Originally Posted by 7luminaries
Hello John. In fact, I only ever said "centuries" and that certainly also means millenia. Why is it so important to you that you take an oppositional position? I do understand the time frame and we're all allowed to phrase things as we like.

John, I am not the speech police and my position is that folks can say what they like and take ownership for it. You can certainly say whatever you like and it's fine by me. Just take ownership for it.
So why would I have any issue with your right to phrase things as you like OR with whatever name you use for "God" or Oneness?

As I said, I am only relaying the Jewish tradition and presenting the facts, which is that YHVH is not pronounced and has not been for a long, long time (centuries, millenia, etc).
Normally RabbiO would come in here and make the post but he's not always on so I just put it out there.

Why does it matter to you that Jews don't pronounce YHVH? Instead, we typically read it aloud as "Adonai". It's just a longstanding tradition, not a "right v. wrong".
Adonai thus becomes more personal through longstanding use and YHVH (I am that I am) is more ephemeral and mystical, being unpronounced.
Who knows? Maybe one day we will reintroduce pronunciation of YHVH but it's not in use at this time.

TBH ritual observance is my least favourite aspect of religious tradition and I am not observant. But many aspects of tradition are meaningful and woven into the culture, so I try to be considerate of these longstanding traditions.

You do as you like. Christians have various ways of pronouncing it and you can pick whichever you prefer.

Peace & blessings
Till I read your post, I did not know you are a Reconstructionists in the Jewish faith.

My post were leaning toward the original poster's question dealing with Yahweh.

As you can see from my posts, Yahweh is the most used name in the Hebrew Bible but ironically is probably the least recognized name.

I also spoke about the Jewish diasporas. In the previous post, I asked the question, if we had to go thru such diasporas the Jews went thru, how would we react in that of the usage of the name of Yahweh? Some claim during those time periods, is when the name of Yahweh stopped being spoken and in some cases even written, but it does not mean what was done was right. There was actually no scriptural reason to stop using the name of the LORD which is Yahweh nor is there any scriptural reason to say Adonai when reading the word.

You mentioned the TBH which really does not have much 'bite' in the matter. The TBH is only the policy for one Temple, Temple Beth Hatfiloh located in Olympia, Washington, USA. But the TBH policies claim "Ritual decision making at TBH is based in Jewish values. We use tradition and halacha (Jewish law) as starting points, but we are not necessarily bound by them." Under Jewish law, the name Yahweh is suppose to be used. The TBH has no scriptural grounds not to use the name Yahweh.

As for Adonai (אֲדֹנָ֤י), that is first used in Genesis 15:2. The expression is אֲדֹנָ֤י יֱהוִה֙ which gets transliterated as Adonai Yahweh which gets translated in the NIV as 'Sovereign Lord'. Replacing Yahweh with Adonai would render that scripture as 'Sovereign Sovereign' which makes no sense. Using the TBH's policy, under Jewish Law, there is no scriptural grounds to do that.

He dipped the pen into the ink and then faltered for just a second. A tremor had gone through his bowels. To mark the paper was the decisive act. In small clumsy letters he wrote: ........... April 4th, 1984.
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Old 17-01-2020, 02:31 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
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John...I do not ascribe to any particular label though yes I am generally progressive. But TBH just meant "to be honest"...

I go almost never to services these days, being that I am extremely turned off by tradition in general at this point and have been for the last several years, due to its intentional lack of engagement and relevance on certain core aspects of modern ethics (more on that below)...and due to the depressingly hard-core misogyny which I find prevalent even amongst those who vote like I do and hold similar political views. Some of it is generational but most of it is far, far more foundational.

I do still go to studies on ethics and mysticism (kabbalah), both of which I consider to be the heart of the tradition. But as to the former, it is intentionally outdated regarding modern society and that means as a tradition it is failing in its purpose and mission, which is to guide us in authentic love in being and doing, for ourselves and others equally. This failure goes for most other traditions as well.

I had to work for YEARS to get the local shul to use a minimally transliterated siddur so everyone, including visitors and guests and folks from other faiths, could participate in the main parts of the service. I cannot think of anything more offputting than to be shut out of participation. Finally they got the minimally transliterated siddur so that folks actually feel welcomed and included in the service but wow was that slog just unnecessarily grinding and exhausting.

I also feel it is horrid and vile for the black hat bearded orthodox gents to pointedly say nothing publicly in support of the many women experiencing rape and coercion, abuse, defilement, exploitation...and even outright trafficking of women and girls...even when the harsh reality brought forward by #MeToo presented itself as the opportunity to do the right thing. This is after the old bearded gents actually taking a positive and supportive position on behalf of Muslims being persecuted in the...due to the harsh US immigration policies presenting themselves as the opportunity to do the right thing.

Both of these situations spoke to the most fundamental "commandment" in Judaism, repeated multiple times throughout the biblical texts...that of supporting and standing for the most vulnerable in our societies (e.g., parsha Ki Tavo) -- welcoming and supporting and protecting immigrants, women and children, the ill, the elderly, and so forth. This is the heart of the faith -- that is undisputed.

Even though most in the other non-orthodox traditions of Judaism do publicly, openly, and strongly support these things and have done for decades...i.e., the dignity and parity of folks of other cultures and faiths AND of women...still, there was no strong public position taken at that time on behalf of women by the orthodox (no surprise) and not much really even by any of these much more liberal and progressive traditions within Judaism. So...it was really just deeply and foundationally disturbing.

The mystical tradition in Judaism is unparalleled for insight and truth, IMO. BUT in practice, we are confronting an ages-long blind spot...and the dark underbelly of misogyny is being uncovered in all cultures and all traditions.
Despite probably having millions of pages of commentary on ethics in concrete, proscriptive practice and recommendation, in regard to relationships and conduct, the lazy, contrived assumption is always that the vast majority are married from puberty till death -- but clearly that is a ludicrous, fanciful contrivance in the modern era which allow for "bro code" and "whatever" and lacks a moral and ethical centre from which to provide any guidance whatsoever in this area.

There is simply a lack of will (per the ubiquitous, universal "bro code") to address the iniquity of men in this area in the modern era and to take ownership of the need to take much clearer and stronger positions on conduct in relationship and sexuality outside of marriage. And to stop with the pretense that all men and women are married off shortly after reaching puberty, as in ancient times

I suppose what I'm saying is, it's not that important what we call "God"...and for that reason, what tradition puts forth is perhaps as good as any other -- or perhaps not . As there should always be multiple views on any given topic...that is another clearly state and understood principle of the faith. Of course you may have your own private preferences in either case. And of course you can & should honour your own journey regarding how you relate to or conceive of What Is.

To me, however -- (per all my explanation about where lack is extreme i nour society, including in our traditions) -- what's ultimately important is how we honour the divine which exists everywhere and within each of us. How we honour the divine in our word and deed -- and TBH in our intent and thought.

Peace & blessings,
Bound by conventions, people tend to reach for what is easy.

Here we must be unafraid of what is difficult.

For all living beings in nature must unfold in their particular way

and become themselves despite all opposition.

-- Rainer Maria Rilke
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Old 22-01-2020, 04:34 PM
BigJohn BigJohn is offline
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In the Talmud - Mas. Yoma 35b, it reads:


The footnote has an interesting note It reads:

"The priests and the people who stood in the Temple court and who, on hearing him pronounce the ineffable Name of God, prostrated themselves."

Which claims the Name of God was spoken by the Jews.

He dipped the pen into the ink and then faltered for just a second. A tremor had gone through his bowels. To mark the paper was the decisive act. In small clumsy letters he wrote: ........... April 4th, 1984.
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