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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Religions & Faiths > Christianity

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  #81  
Old 10-08-2018, 11:35 PM
django django is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AHIYAH
Sorry I do not know where this is from and I don't know why you mentioned Mary. It seems to me that it is a play on words. (114) is speaking about the Spirit(she) which is a representation of the four wives of Yaakubah(Jacob) and he is obviously addressing some males.
(22) sounds about right and its a merger but the Masculine is the Judgement and the Nurturing(wisdom) is the feminine. You may or may not need to observe the four levels of understanding that can be found in many places, and that is just a basic tool.
So here's my take, we are to listen to our Mothers' voice to guide us in Wisdom to know the way to the Kingdom. Once in the Kingdom and you're in a particular place in that Kingdom you will also know why the Judgement Seat is there and belongs to Our Father. So with the Wisdom of the Holy/Living/Set Apart Spirit we better adhere to it before the Father lays Judgement.

They're both from the Gospel of Thomas, numbered accordingly.

From your brief paragraph here I would be inclined to agree with you about following the Mother's voice to know the way to the KIngdom and understanding the Father once in the Kingdom. However, this understanding is not gnostic as far as I know.
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  #82  
Old 11-08-2018, 12:06 AM
AHIYAH AHIYAH is offline
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It(she) also says "The abundance of a man's heart so shall He(She) speak". Obviously the Heart pumps blood which for some reason I always get told of the verse 'life is in the Blood'. It's all figurative speech which should bring about the literal meaning within you. If you knew what the animals represent in that verse you would know the difference between the son of man and the son of God. Man is just another animal. So speaking of Adam and how he yearned for a mate She brought great joy to his heart. We are now in another beginning, the last one. I don't know about you but I hear Bob Marley singing his Redemption Song.
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  #83  
Old 11-08-2018, 12:14 AM
AHIYAH AHIYAH is offline
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Originally Posted by django
They're both from the Gospel of Thomas, numbered accordingly.

From your brief paragraph here I would be inclined to agree with you about following the Mother's voice to know the way to the KIngdom and understanding the Father once in the Kingdom. However, this understanding is not gnostic as far as I know.
I'm not sure whether it is Gnostic as well and it is just my inner voice showing me what to say. I've gotten a bit lazy in my age looking up books, which leaves me more open to be more off the cuff. Apologies for thinking you were one of those other people. It's not often that happens and its a sign to me of where you might be in that Kingdom. I say might because I may be wrong and so I won't mention it because I do not want to influence a wrong outcome. It's just best to make your own way there.
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  #84  
Old 11-08-2018, 04:51 AM
FallingLeaves FallingLeaves is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by django
(114) ...I will lead her that I may make her male, in order that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every woman who makes herself male will enter into the kingdom of heaven...

versus

(22) ... when you make the male and the female into a single one, so that the male is not male and the female not female...

My question is why would Mary be made male resembling actual males when in other places gnostics aim for being 'not-male' and 'not-female'. It doesn't make sense, nor does making Mary male make sense if God is ungendered.

AFAIK it is an old taoist thing. One of the goals of sages being to get to the point BETWEEN male and female, kind of a hinge-point where you can reach out and do either as required? Kind of like sitting on a fence between two equally beautiful fields?

But you can't just skip from one side of the fence to sitting on the fence, you have to know about both sides of the fence if you intend to sit there. Because when sitting on the fence you have to see both sides, and if you are partial you start looking more at the side you are partial to, then you fall off the fence to that side. So you have to learn about both sides to become less partial.

As it turns out Christianity says head for the male, because in times past that our history doesn't really speak of females were in charge and males found themselves degraded. (well it *is* 'His' 'Story' after all?) So to get to the point of sitting on the fence you have to depart from the female, travel through the male, and then you have a chance of making it to the fence. At least that is the view that inspired the talk we are having now.

this is similar to the inner/outer thing we talked about earlier - our society emphasizes the outer world and then I said well according to Thomas Jesus said you need both inner and outer... to which AHIYAH replied that one needs to go to the inner world and not consider the outer because the inner has been so downplayed and you don't know enough to integrate the two. Before you can start merging the two you have to know equally about both? So you lessen what is strong in an attempt to give space for what is weak to grow more plentiful. And then when your garden has plenty of both plants you take the next step.

what I'm trying to say is that each of these things you've brought up are separate stages of the same process; at one stage you focus on one thing but at another stage you move your focus on to something else.
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  #85  
Old 11-08-2018, 05:17 AM
django django is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FallingLeaves
AFAIK it is an old taoist thing. One of the goals of sages being to get to the point BETWEEN male and female, kind of a hinge-point where you can reach out and do either as required? Kind of like sitting on a fence between two equally beautiful fields?

But you can't just skip from one side of the fence to sitting on the fence, you have to know about both sides of the fence if you intend to sit there. Because when sitting on the fence you have to see both sides, and if you are partial you start looking more at the side you are partial to, then you fall off the fence to that side. So you have to learn about both sides to become less partial.

As it turns out Christianity says head for the male, because in times past that our history doesn't really speak of females were in charge and males found themselves degraded. (well it *is* 'His' 'Story' after all?) So to get to the point of sitting on the fence you have to depart from the female, travel through the male, and then you have a chance of making it to the fence. At least that is the view that inspired the talk we are having now.

this is similar to the inner/outer thing we talked about earlier - our society emphasizes the outer world and then I said well according to Thomas Jesus said you need both inner and outer... to which AHIYAH replied that one needs to go to the inner world and not consider the outer because the inner has been so downplayed and you don't know enough to integrate the two. Before you can start merging the two you have to know equally about both? So you lessen what is strong in an attempt to give space for what is weak to grow more plentiful. And then when your garden has plenty of both plants you take the next step.

what I'm trying to say is that each of these things you've brought up are separate stages of the same process; at one stage you focus on one thing but at another stage you move your focus on to something else.


Christianity arose in a patriarchal era, men were already dominant, and by your logic needing to come more to the female side. Why doesn't Jesus say he will make all the males female at the same time as he obligingly makes Mary male, so that they too can have a chance to balance up?

And yes taoism is indeed more balanced with its notion of yin and yang.
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  #86  
Old 11-08-2018, 05:28 AM
FallingLeaves FallingLeaves is offline
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i tried to say it but not so well.

before these times that we have written down and can study about, the females were in charge and the males were denigrated. To the point where the males didn't really even want to be males because they were just treated horribly. It was that bad.

Since the time of god it has been the other way around, to bring about a kind of balance.

BTW this is all on HUGE time frames of the sort people don't like to think about. And the fact that a lot of things happened in a prehistory that few know even exists doesn't help either.
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  #87  
Old 11-08-2018, 06:26 AM
django django is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FallingLeaves
i tried to say it but not so well.

before these times that we have written down and can study about, the females were in charge and the males were denigrated. To the point where the males didn't really even want to be males because they were just treated horribly. It was that bad.

Do you have any evidence for this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FallingLeaves
Since the time of god it has been the other way around, to bring about a kind of balance.

BTW this is all on HUGE time frames of the sort people don't like to think about. And the fact that a lot of things happened in a prehistory that few know even exists doesn't help either.
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  #88  
Old 11-08-2018, 07:03 AM
sky sky is offline
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Originally Posted by django


From your brief paragraph here I would be inclined to agree with you about following the Mother's voice to know the way to the KIngdom and understanding the Father once in the Kingdom. However, this understanding is not gnostic as far as I know.




In the Gnostic's the word Female ( Not Gender) is sometimes used to describe the mind, so to follow the Mothers ( always thought of as Females) voice is seen as following the mind....
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  #89  
Old 11-08-2018, 07:09 AM
sky sky is offline
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Originally Posted by FallingLeaves
i tried to say it but not so well.

before these times that we have written down and can study about, the females were in charge and the males were denigrated. To the point where the males didn't really even want to be males because they were just treated horribly. It was that bad.



Jesus is not referring to anyone being in charge or denigrated.... To understand you have to put to one side Male/Female as being Genders....
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  #90  
Old 11-08-2018, 07:16 AM
sky sky is offline
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A famous Sufi mystic, Rabiya, was searching for something on the street outsider her small hut. The sun was setting and darkness was descending, as few people gathered around her. "What have you lost? What are you searching for? Perhaps we can help," they said to Rabiya.

Rabiya said, "I have lost my needle."

One amongst the people said, "Well, the sun is setting now and it will be very difficult to find the needle. Where has it fallen? That'll help us narrow down the area on this big road. If we know the exact place, it will be easier to find it."

Rabiya told them, "It is better not to ask me that question -- because, actually, it has not fallen on the road at all. It has fallen inside my house."

Everyone started giggling as if she was joking. Then a skeptic says out loud, "We always knew that you were a little insane! If the needle has fallen inside the house, then why are you searching for it on the road?"

"For a very simple reason: inside the house there is no light and on the outside a little light is still there," Rabiya replied.

The people laughed and started dispersing. Rabiya called them back and said, "Listen! That’s exactly what you are doing: I was just following your example. You go on seeking bliss in the outside world without asking the most fundamental question: where exactly have I lost it?"

After a pause, she continues, "You have lost it inside, and yet you are looking for it on the outside for the very same reason -- your senses are outward bound, your ears hear sounds on the outside, your hands touch things on the outside. That's the reason why you are searching outside. For a very long time, I was also just searching on the outside. But the day I searched inwards, I was surprised. That is where I lost it and that is the only place it can be found."
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