What is real?

[soulforce]

Originally Posted by ketzer

What does real mean to you? How do you define it? How do you judge what is real and what is not? Is it the same for everyone, or do you have your own?
How important is it to you to know?

Reality is an interpretation of your brain. And since everyone's brain is slightly different everyone's perception on reality is slightly different too. For example we will agree that the universe is big, and that laws are unbreakable, but we cannot agree on how to interpret the data.

Some of us believe that an intelligent designer created the universe and others support reduction materialism. Some scientists believe in String theory and other's believe in Quantum theory. Maybe they're both right, but which reality you perceive depends on your brain.

Rather your brain is the filter where you consciousness experiences the universe.

Here's a question for you, if the universe wasn't a conscious being if nothing were alive to experience the universe would it still exist?

Think of the singularity of a black hole. If General relativity breaks down at the singularity, does space time still exist?

[handy guy]

umm, I don't agree that the universe is just big, for it is also very small.

Originally Posted by Busby

......

However science itself didn't find any connection to any metaphysical science, attempts at some sort of reconciliation failed miserably and should any physicist/biologist/astronomer indicate a possible reference to ancient or aged tenets their words are quickly removed from sight and hearing.

.......

For me personally there is a reality, when I bang my head against the table corner I know it hurts, knowing the the atoms are mainly space (and it's not at all clear what space is) doesn't lessen my pain.

So I'll stick with this: there are two things which exist of which I am certain, one is matter (as above) and the other is mind. You know, 'mind over matter' for me a real truth - we have not yet realised just what our minds are capable of. Aldous Huxley found a good description for the mind he called it/them 'The Doors of Perception'.

An ideal point to start thinking.

Poor scientists, it is a shame that some today feel they cannot be a scientist and still have a sense of wonder and express it outloud. Science has a set of rules to stay within, and this is good and how it should be, stay within them and you can call it science. But wonder does not have such rules, and this is really where science finds its inspiration and its starting point. Being laughed at is not so bad, it is the reaction most of the great scientific discoveries got when first proposed. One wonders how many scientific insights died with the scientists because they were afraid to pursue them for fear of ridicule.

"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all art and science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead; his eyes are closed." Albert Einstein

I think you are correct, there is a personal reality for each of us, and when we get banged on the head, we can't help but take it personally.

Mind over matter is a good way to put it. One could also say matter from mind. I recall that not too long ago, the phrase du jour for managers to toss out during meetings was "perception is reality". What they meant of course was people will see things as real depending on how they perceive them, (often they were also trying to say, "Aren't I wise?" ). What they didn't realize, was that they were closer to the truth then they knew. Realization is not just a matter of coming to see what is already there. Realization could also be used to describe a process of creating reality from and within ones own consciousness, the actualization of potential. Taking what could be and collapsing it down, for ourselves, for that present moment, to what is. One thing our minds are capable of, is creating reality. We should take reality personally, it is after all our own personal reality, we created it, it is real for us, and we suffer from it when our creation hits us in the head.

"Dough! Stupid table, I knew I shouldn't have created it in the first place."

Originally Posted by soulforce

.....
Rather your brain is the filter where you consciousness experiences the universe.
.....
Here's a question for you, if the universe wasn't a conscious being if nothing were alive to experience the universe would it still exist?
.....
Think of the singularity of a black hole. If General relativity breaks down at the singularity, does space time still exist?

Quite true. And yet, the brain is composed of matter, which perhaps exists only in the mind of the observer, rendered from the information encoded in the vibrations of the quantum field. The filter seems to be creating itself.

If a tree falls in the forest and noone is there to hear it, does it make a sound? Good questions, true or false, a matter of perspective, the perspective of consciousness filtered through matter, matter which is created by consciousness. Just what does it mean to say something exists, that which exists must be real, that which is real must exist. Around and around I go until I get dizzy and fall down.

Very good question. I cannot think of a singularity as a real thing. No matter how much I try, my brain filter can only envision real things in four dimensions. If spacetime still exists at the singularity, then for filtered me, I suppose it becomes a pure abstraction. It exists, but perhaps only as good, evil, love, hate, beauty, and fear exit. Perhaps, that is how all of spacetime exists, an abstraction, beyond and made real only by the arbitrary and capricious projection created by the filter of my mind. And yet it is this spacetime creating projection that bounds the stage on which the story of me plays out. It gives rise to and makes real, for me, to experience, all of those other abstractions which together color, animate, define, and inject meaning into, my life.

[John32241]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

I find it is particularly of interest, though, this step of taking ownership once there is a basic level of awareness. It is the launching point for each person's spiritual big bang. It is ultimately unavoidable. So I find it to be a fascinating thing, to see when it is that folks begin to expand outward and then coalesce in their own way.

Yes taking ownership is the thing in my mind. We are conditioned by society and all authorative systems to obey those authorities. It is a grand leap of awareness to escape that slave mind mentality. It is very fasination how some want to do this for them self and others only feel safe when they follow the various (self serving) systems humanity has created.

But it doesn't happen at that immense level until you realise that you are what you are (I am that I am) in all "times" and all "places"...including what we call spiritual realms. There are no special exceptions. So when we bring a different presence or level of integrity to our day-to-day lives, it means we are still struggling with ownership of our awareness. And the hope is (IMO), our struggles are fruitful and begin to do more good and less damage to self and others as we go. Ownership of all that is also a part of it.

Peace & blessings
7L

The transition from being a slave to authorities towards self empowerment is a gradual process. There is that obvious self doubt the logical brain brings into our thinking. The key in my view is self love for all that we are. How to work with the logical brain and heart centered compassionate awareness is a very personal undertaking.

These are not struggles unless we resist the various factors in contention. Our society has rules in place to punish those who do not obey the laws. So whatever self awareness we cultivate must be done within these social restrictions in my mind. That universal law/rule 'harm no one and do as you wish' is not yet truly understood. So we have law makers, ha ha. An entire political system to contend with. Authentic free thinking is not encouraged.

Yet in all of this I see those who want to become self enabled. It is truly amazing for that to happen, all things considered.

Hugs,
John

[Busby]

Originally Posted by soulforce

Reality is an interpretation of your brain. And since everyone's brain is slightly different everyone's perception on reality is slightly different too. For example we will agree that the universe is big, and that laws are unbreakable, but we cannot agree on how to interpret the data.

Some of us believe that an intelligent designer created the universe and others support reduction materialism. Some scientists believe in String theory and other's believe in Quantum theory. Maybe they're both right, but which reality you perceive depends on your brain.

Rather your brain is the filter where you consciousness experiences the universe.

Here's a question for you, if the universe wasn't a conscious being if nothing were alive to experience the universe would it still exist?

Think of the singularity of a black hole. If General relativity breaks down at the singularity, does space time still exist?

Of late I have been pondering the question of what happened in the universe for those billions of years after the Big Bang if consciousness only came along later. If no observer (consciousness) existed then the BB surely must have been soundless, invisible and dark, appearing only when the first lichen felt the sun on its back!!!

[indefinable]

Originally Posted by ketzer

What does real mean to you? How do you define it? How do you judge what is real and what is not? Is it the same for everyone, or do you have your own?
How important is it to you to know?

everything humans told you is not real

Originally Posted by Busby

Of late I have been pondering the question of what happened in the universe for those billions of years after the Big Bang if consciousness only came along later. If no observer (consciousness) existed then the BB surely must have been soundless, invisible and dark, appearing only when the first lichen felt the sun on its back!!!

One of the implications of Einstein's theory of relativity and its effects on time, is that one person’s past can be another's future. This brings up the question then, when do or did events actually happen. One solution to this in physics is what some would call the block universe, in which all events simply exist rather than flowing from past, through the present, and into the future, everything just is (more or less like the Akashic records of Hindu lore). Instead it is your awareness of those events as you “move” about in the “block”, that creates the illusion of time, for you. Which ties back to the question in the post which you were responding to.

“Here's a question for you, if the universe wasn't a conscious being if nothing were alive to experience the universe would it still exist?”

If you are not aware of something, or if nothing is aware of it, then do we say it exists, for you, or at all? Is information a thing that exists, or a process of creation, or perhaps both? If nothing is using information to be informed, then does it count as information? If not, where and what is it then, and how does it become information again once something becomes aware of it and uses it for the creation of the forms within?

Perhaps the answer is that the universe is a being that is conscious. It exists beyond time, it is not becoming, it is being, it just is. Within the awareness of this conscious universe, everything is real, always has been and always will be, everything just is. Perhaps it is holding within its mind, the information to create all of the potential forms for all of the potential realities possible within all ten dimensions of the multiverse. Information perhaps encoded in the eternally vibrating standing waves of the quantum fields. Perhaps within and part of that universal mind, created by that universal mind, there are countess individual minds, riding those waves, reading and experiencing that information, realizing its meaning as they go about. Perhaps this is how this universal mind endlessly explores and experiences itself. Perhaps then, if one of those individual minds asked that universal mind, “What is?,” no matter what it is referring to, even if the individualized mind is asking about itself, its universal and eternally truthful answer would be, “I am.”

[Miss Hepburn]

Originally Posted by Busby

Of late I have been pondering the question of what happened
in the universe for those billions of years after the Big Bang if consciousness only came along later.
If no observer (consciousness) existed then the BB....

How come you think consciousness came along later, Busby?

[Miss Hepburn]

And Hi God-Like,

Originally Posted by Busby

For me personally there is a reality, when I bang my head against the table corner
I know it hurts, knowing the the atoms are mainly space (and it's not at all clear what space is) doesn't lessen my pain.

Ah, but it would and does for, say, a Yogi...that lays on a bed of nails or slows his heartbeat
to almost nothing...that sits in the ice cold and yet his temperature is normal.

So I'll stick with this:
there are two things which exist of which I am certain, one is matter (as above) and the other is mind.

Ha, and here I am saying, "There is no matter"!
None what so ever...all of it is a trick, unreal, made of dream stuff. (Hahaha, I'll stay away from Eastern word Illusion...esp since
I was given a profound experience of this at 8 yrs old, didn't know that word much...and yes, my mouth was dropped
as I looked all around me, up and down..and saw nothing
was real...when the Doors of Perception first opened in my mind.)

In my little brain I equated it to the Western movies where the
set crew props up building fronts to make a "town". LOL.

I have had many exps of this since, haha, no drugs....and same thing....an altered
perception in my brain allowed me to see the Truth of what my eyes
see....all fake...smoke and mirrors...a Cosmic Magician's trick.


And NOW finally ! Q Physics comes on the scene so the common person can understand your chair
only appears to be a chair...hard, like the ice cube, later melting into water and the water evaporating...nothing
is what it seems...and all is temporary and morphing into something else: every single thing you see with your eyes.