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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Religions & Faiths > Christianity

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  #21  
Old 24-02-2020, 01:39 PM
BigJohn BigJohn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatMan
You know what hurts the most when it comes to christianity? That the message of Christ was overshadowed by the church leaders and so instead to free people from the bondage of ignorance, they made them the slaves of the church.

What you wrote holds a lot of truth.

If the people could have studied what they were suppose to know about Christianity and the history of their religion, the outcome may have been different.
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        Happiness is the result of an enlightened mind whereas suffering is caused by a distorted mind.
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  #22  
Old 24-02-2020, 01:43 PM
BigJohn BigJohn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Busby
Sorry, but every time someone complains of wrong translations from the original my mind takes a jump and asks; 'Why didn't God oversee these words properly, or is it a case really of total negligence?'

The Bible is known as 'The Word of God' - so where's the problem, God should have taken the trouble to ensure that the translations into all languages were 100%. If he didn't bother to get his message over properly (so that all of mankind understand without a university degree or having someone nailed on a cross) then the repercussions are, and always have been (and will be) utterly confusing.

The problem you mentioned can be found in virtually all religions if not all religions.
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        Happiness is the result of an enlightened mind whereas suffering is caused by a distorted mind.
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  #23  
Old 24-02-2020, 03:14 PM
sky sky is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJohn
The problem you mentioned can be found in virtually all religions if not all religions.


Which other religion uses the Bible?
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  #24  
Old 24-02-2020, 03:15 PM
sky sky is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJohn
What you wrote holds a lot of truth.

If the people could have studied what they were suppose to know about Christianity and the history of their religion, the outcome may have been different.


But they use the Bible don't they to study their religion?
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  #25  
Old 24-02-2020, 04:46 PM
BigJohn BigJohn is offline
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Irenaeus' Book "Against Heresies (Book III, Chapter 11)", Irenaeus (130 - 202) wrote regarding the 4 Gospels:

"It is not possible that the Gospels can be either more or fewer in number than they are. For, since there are four zones of the world in which we live, and four principal winds, while the Church is scattered throughout all the world, and the pillar and ground 1 Timothy 3:15 of the Church is the Gospel and the spirit of life; it is fitting that she should have four pillars, breathing out immortality on every side, and vivifying men afresh. From which fact, it is evident that the Word, the Artificer of all, He that sits upon the cherubim, and contains all things, He who was manifested to men, has given us the Gospel under four aspects, but bound together by one Spirit. As also David says, when entreating His manifestation, You that sits between the cherubim, shine forth. For the cherubim, too, were four-faced, and their faces were images of the dispensation of the Son of God."

But then, the solidifying of the Canon occurred much later after Irenaeus' death.
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        Happiness is the result of an enlightened mind whereas suffering is caused by a distorted mind.
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  #26  
Old 24-02-2020, 05:18 PM
Busby Busby is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJohn
The problem you mentioned can be found in virtually all religions if not all religions.

Ah! Excuses. Lame too.
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The constantly promoted belief (induced by religions) that we are born to be good and obey (in order to enter heaven) is a tragic error in the concept of the universe's plan and an insult to mankind's intellect.

'A clear conscience is the sure sign of a bad memory'
- Mark Twain.
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  #27  
Old 24-02-2020, 06:06 PM
RabbiO RabbiO is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sky123
Which other religion uses the Bible?
That depends on how you define “the Bible”. The Jewish Bible, referred to as the Tanakh, does not include Christian scripture, but basically contains what non-Jews refer to as The Old Testament.
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  #28  
Old 24-02-2020, 08:57 PM
iamthat iamthat is offline
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There can be significant differences between what people believe to be in the Bible and what is actually written.

The popular idea of Jesus is that he was born in a stable, his mother Mary was a virgin and his father Joseph was a carpenter.

But none of the four gospels mention a stable.
  • Matthew (2.11) mentions the three wise men coming to a house.
  • Luke (2.7) mentions Mary laying her son in a manger because there was no room at the inn. Inn is a possible translation of the Greek kataluma, but later in Luke (22.11) kataluma is translated as a room in a house. Mangers were commonly used as cradles.
  • Neither Mark nor John make any reference to a stable.

And was Mary a virgin?
  • Mark and John make no mention of this, which would seem to be a significant omission.
  • Luke says that Mary was a virgin filled with the Holy Spirit.
  • Matthew (1.23) refers to the prophecy saying "Behold a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a child...", but the Semitic term almah simply means a young woman who has reached puberty and thus can bear children.

Was Joseph a carpenter?
  • Not mentioned in Luke and John.
  • Matthew (13.55) refers to Jesus as the carpenter's son.
  • Mark (6.3) refers to Jesus as a carpenter, presumably having learned his father's occupation.
Laurence Gardner points out:
The portrayal of Jesus as the son of a carpenter is yet another example of how a later language misinterpreted an original meaning. It is not necessarily a deliberate mistranslation but it does show how some old Hebrew and Aramaic root words, enveloped within the Greek texts, have no direct counterparts in other tongues. The term tranlsated into English as a carpenter represents the much wider sense of the Ancient Greek ho tekton which is a rendition of the Semitic word naggar. ... this could perhaps be applied to a trade craftsman but would more likely define a scholar or teacher. It certainly did not identify Joseph as a woodworker.

So there are more important language issues in the New Testament than just whether a translation uses a or an.

Peace
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  #29  
Old 24-02-2020, 11:44 PM
FallingLeaves FallingLeaves is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Busby
Sorry, but every time someone complains of wrong translations from the original my mind takes a jump and asks; 'Why didn't God oversee these words properly, or is it a case really of total negligence?'

The Bible is known as 'The Word of God' - so where's the problem, God should have taken the trouble to ensure that the translations into all languages were 100%. If he didn't bother to get his message over properly (so that all of mankind understand without a university degree or having someone nailed on a cross) then the repercussions are, and always have been (and will be) utterly confusing.

a) why is everyone so litigeous with words? Words aren't fixed in stone the way people seem to think they should be. It is a well-known fact the meaning morphs given time. And neither do they have a single fixed meaning even at a given time; often there are multiple meanings sometimes at odds with each other. Don't believe it? Read the dictionary and it is obvious.

But everyone says 'the meaning I take is important and everyone else should conform to it' anyway.

and

b) How do you propose to accurately judge His activities when you openly admit you are too confused to know what is going on? You really think He should conform to your desires for what He should be like just because you like certain things and dislike others? Did you not hear, even as we think his ways foolish, he thinks ours foolish?
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As far as confusion... the only difference if he said it in words you think you understand AND you accepted them, is you would suddenly think you are no longer confused. But that would belie the fact that you have not actually become unconfused; it would only change your thoughts into a pretense that you aren't as confused as you actually are.

which is why he doesn't say it in words you understand and can accept, if you are gonna be confused anyway you might as well realize that fact instead of pretending it isn't true.

Now if he could just get us off this thing we have about demanding our own way all day long... sigh....
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  #30  
Old 25-02-2020, 12:43 AM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FallingLeaves
a) why is everyone so litigeous with words? Words aren't fixed in stone the way people seem to think they should be. It is a well-known fact the meaning morphs given time. And neither do they have a single fixed meaning even at a given time; often there are multiple meanings sometimes at odds with each other. Don't believe it? Read the dictionary and it is obvious.

But everyone says 'the meaning I take is important and everyone else should conform to it' anyway.

and

b) How do you propose to accurately judge His activities when you openly admit you are too confused to know what is going on? You really think He should conform to your desires for what He should be like just because you like certain things and dislike others? Did you not hear, even as we think his ways foolish, he thinks ours foolish?
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As far as confusion... the only difference if he said it in words you think you understand AND you accepted them, is you would suddenly think you are no longer confused. But that would belie the fact that you have not actually become unconfused; it would only change your thoughts into a pretense that you aren't as confused as you actually are.

which is why he doesn't say it in words you understand and can accept, if you are gonna be confused anyway you might as well realize that fact instead of pretending it isn't true.

Now if he could just get us off this thing we have about demanding our own way all day long... sigh....
See, now this all harkens back to your "Tower of Babel" analogy which was meant to unfold over various different threads and over the space of weeks.

Before Babel, words were given to meaning and after Babel, meaning was given to words. Before Babel, there was no confusion, because all one needed to do was to get the "gist" of the premise to be able to understand the whole thing. After Babel, people became hung up on etymology and couldn't understand the meaning for the choice of words used...we have seen it happen here, in this very thread.

Fact is my friend, this is Satan at work! Blind Freddy can see that people simply do not WANT to know or to find out, so they use the excuse of ignorance; "I cannot understand it" when any "understanding" is there just ripe for the taking, but they choose (through Free Will) not to avail themselves of taking any opportunity TO understand.

They don't want to understand, they don't believe they ever can understand and therefore, they cannot understand and it is nothing that is outside themselves preventing them from understanding either. If the love, desire and passion for Christ is there, they will freaking go out of their way TO understand the scripture and not say "this passage has a different word used from that other passage and therefore I will discount both as being bogus and a waste of my time reading it".

When an ignorant person is looking for an excuse to remain in ignorance, any excuse will do... even to the detriment of their own self image, created as an expression of the Divine.

This is what creates all of those disagreements and negativity...filtering all information through many, many levels of cognitive dissonance, bias and impairment until what is heard resembles in no way, shape of form what was said, leading to a total inability to communicate on ANY level, even though outwardly, the same language is being spoken...but you wouldn't know it.

It is fulfilling the prophecy of Isaiah..
https://www.biblestudytools.com/pass...;-lucas-8:5-11

Matthew 13:14 "In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: “ ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving."

I actually missed my calling as a Christian...decided to become a Hindu instead... something about surrendering my will to a "historical figure" and not directly to God Himself just didn't sit right with me. I felt as if I did not require a "middleman" and I understand that I shall be judged by God on that point of omission when the time comes.
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