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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Religions & Faiths > North American Indigenous Spirituality

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  #11  
Old 16-02-2019, 05:40 AM
ImthatIm
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Quote:
Sentient quote:
In other words - as the good old pale-face saying goes:
Quote:
Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater
Despite the fact that ....
Quote:
Chief Seattle is probably our greatest manufactured prophet
- David Buerge, a biographer and a historian to the Duwamish Tribe, Seattle’s mother’s people.


Native Americans will become ‘spirit guides’ for the New Age white men???:
Quote:
And when the last red man shall have perished from the earth and his memory among the white men shall have become a myth, these shores will swarm with the invisible dead of my tribe.
The white man will never be alone.
Let him be just and deal kindly with my people for the dead are not powerless.
- Chief Seattle

Sentient:
I have been friends of one of Chief Sealth/Seathl (Seattle) distant relatives for some time and have met others (Muckleshoot, Duwamish, snoqualmie.) They have voiced some of the popular quotes from Chief sealth/Seathl and are proud that he is still remembered that way. They are aware that translations are not always accurate.
It is funny my friend looks exactly like Chief Sealth/Seathl.
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  #12  
Old 17-02-2019, 12:08 AM
sentient sentient is offline
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As I added a Rumi quote in the Sufi poetry thread:
http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...82&postcount=2

A thought occurred: “What if Rumi didn’t write it, but instead it was written by someone else, a Western dude who had been into Sufism?”

And to me it really wouldn’t matter who wrote a poem like that, as long as it had been written.

From:
https://nalakagunawardene.com/2009/0...ervasive-myth/

Chief Seattle (left) and actual speech writer Ted Perry:


Quote:
In his analysis, John Scull poses the query: Why are environmentalists so eager to continue to attribute these words to Chief Seattle instead of to their author, Ted Perry?

Perry, now a professor of film studies at Middlebury University, has tried repeatedly to set the record straight. Moreover, he thinks that the myth is pernicious. “Why are we so willing to accept a text like this if it’s attributed to a Native American?” he asks. “It’s another case of placing Native Americans up on a pedestal and not taking responsibility for our own actions.”
Why indeed?

And on the other hand why are some SJW’s; - (Anti-Cultural Appropriation Warriors) so keen on labeling one as “Vanilla Twinkie from Pretendian tribe with typical Euro attitude of stereotyping Native Americans”; - if one quotes Chief Seattle?

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:Chief_Seattle
Quote:
Many quotes are falsely attributed to Chief Seattle. By the way, that Lakota wisdom about planning for a seven generations is probably myth too. Lokotan history starts around 1720. They barely existed seven generations before the white Americans drove them off. The wise, living in harmony with nature, "noble savage" image of Native American's, invented by hippies in the 1960's and 70's, is as much a fantasy as the bloodthirsty savage image that preceded it.

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For me personally, the Joseph Campbell quoted Black Elk story still sounds true as similar to “Shamanism”.

Personally - so does the the “Web of Life” - Chief Seattle quote.
I mean if you come from hunter-gatherer (Western Siberian) Permian, Komi, Udmurt or Ob Ugrian background – the Spider Goddess/Deity’s interconnected web (as I understand it) - is very important.

Number 7 is extremely important to them as well, it runs like a red thread through the whole belief system. The upper and the lower worlds have 7 layers to them. 7 days of ceremonies. 7 aspects to an exalted man. 7 is related to the 7 stars of Big Dipper and to the (central) Sun, time .... etc. etc. etc.

They are/were no hippy vanilla twinkies nor pretend Indians.

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  #13  
Old 17-02-2019, 12:55 PM
ImthatIm
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Sentient

Of course all your concerns are valid, and I'm not suggesting there are not problems.
Did Chief Sealth make such statements? We would only have physical proof if he had knowledge of the written language (which I do not know if he did.). or there was audio recordings.
Chief Sealth was made famous for finding a way to help his people live. He was a leader. Proof: His people do live. They thrive.
He should be remembered as a leader that strove to have his people survive.
As far as 7 generations, if you care when or how it started that's your business. It is a real saying that real people use today for the purpose of having one stop and think of your actions. Walk carefully and think of those that you will be affecting.

And 7 is Spiritual perfection.( 1+6=7 ) 1 being the first to be thanked the Creator of all (Center). Followed by thanking the grandfathers of the 6 directions. E S W N Sky & Earth. This is a common practice among many.
Can't say who started it and please don't say the hippies.
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  #14  
Old 17-02-2019, 02:20 PM
ImthatIm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sentient

And on the other hand why are some SJW’s; - (Anti-Cultural Appropriation Warriors) so keen on labeling one as [i]“Vanilla Twinkie from Pretendian tribe with typical Euro attitude of stereotyping Native Americans”;

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I personally don't know why you would care about SLW's labeling.

This name calling is one of the oldest tricks in the book.(The book of bullying)
I personally like it when someone calls me a derogatory name to my face.Then it is the time to stand up and see what is in your heart.

I personally like the old twinkies rather than the new twinkies.(The filling seemed more custardy)
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  #15  
Old 17-02-2019, 10:33 PM
sentient sentient is offline
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Historical accuracy is important. Though so much of the old culture has been lost due to ‘xyz’ ….. and that goes for all indigenous peoples.

It is also important not to perpetuate fantasies about Native Americans or ‘Shamanism’ for that matter & New Agers often mix up the two.
Though there are some parallels and similarities.
Of late I found another similarity between what must be my grandmother’s Permian side ancestry and Native Americans:
http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...4&postcount=10

Especially this:
https://imageproxy.themaven.net/http...fp-debug=false

I’d be happy enough to let the “Vanilla Twinkies, the wannabees, the cultural appropriators” and the “SJWs, the anti-cultural appropriation warriors, the fraud hunters” sort it all out among themselves, but that is not the case, because in reality, the hate spills over.

When the Saami can no longer sing their traditional songs without SJWs claiming they are stolen from Native Americans, nor wear their traditional clothing, because they are supposedly now imitating Native Americans, or when the Native Siberians cannot wear their fringes, because supposedly, those belong to Native Americans – this SJW-hood, so ignorantly, goes too far!

And heaven help us, if we even mention that we come from a ‘shamanic culture’!!!


I am all for the survival of Indigenous Cultures – but I genuinely fear what Native Americans bring to the collective table.

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  #16  
Old 17-02-2019, 10:57 PM
ImthatIm
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Sentient:
I apologize.
I really don't have any real knowledge of SJW. Just so I know this is who you mean by SJW right? (Social Justice Warrior)
Certainly I would not put up with or be in support of anybody intruding on ones right to practice traditional beliefs.
I have had a certain group start a forest fire and try to shut down ceremonial practices but that was years ago. Also some just trying to shut down another ceremony by stirring it up and threatening people. So I do understand that things can get out of hand.
I am not attuned to what different groups are or are not doing and I intentionally stay out of things that don't directly effect me and this time now, that I am on the internet is new to me and I do wonder sometimes why I even keep responding to some things. I did originally join this forum for a winter activity.
So if you will forgive me if I have written anything out of ignorance.

I do also agree historical accuracy is important rather than something made up or intentionally tweaked.
But so much is unverifiable.
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  #17  
Old 18-02-2019, 12:07 AM
sentient sentient is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ImthatIm
Sentient:I apologize.
Personally - ImthatIm – you have got nothing to apologize for!!!
Quote:
I do also agree historical accuracy is important rather than something made up or intentionally tweaked.
But so much is unverifiable.
Well, despite us being genetically mainly ‘Aboriginal Euros’ - thankfully a lot of our root ‘Shamanic’ symbols and practices find their origin/reflection in Siberia - for verification.


Just for the record for the 'Social Justice Warrior' - 'Anti-Cultural Appropriation Warrior' bullies - concerning 'Shamanic Cultures' of Euros:
https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_relea...-fad112618.php


But just by being Euro .... still, I haven't got a clue what for example - 'Celtic Shamanism' is.
They can only speak for themselves.

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  #18  
Old 18-02-2019, 01:48 AM
sentient sentient is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ImthatIm
And 7 is Spiritual perfection.( 1+6=7 ) 1 being the first to be thanked the Creator of all (Center). Followed by thanking the grandfathers of the 6 directions. E S W N Sky & Earth. This is a common practice among many.
Can't say who started it and please don't say the hippies.

Sounds like a genuinely authentic and an excellent practice.

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  #19  
Old 18-02-2019, 07:30 AM
ImthatIm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sentient
Personally - ImthatIm – you have got nothing to apologize for!!!

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I was apologizing for taking lightly your experience with SJW and poking fun.
Especially since I have no knowledge of them.

I do enjoy your cultural photos.
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  #20  
Old 18-02-2019, 09:46 PM
sentient sentient is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ImthatIm
I do enjoy your cultural photos.
You mean the Tuvan Shaman headdress?
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c4/7d...bf1819c9e2.png

The Altaic bird-on-head is real, because one can cross-check it with the Uralics (Ob-Ugrians-Komi,Udmurt,Bashkirs). And some artist might paint an image of it and I would hate them to get *-----threats* from SJWs over the misunderstanding.

And just to be perfectly clear on this - this was/is not Altaic/Uralic practice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:
https://carboncostume.com/wordpress/...to-Costume.jpg


But back to the ‘Native American’ quotes:
Quote:
Granma and Granpa wanted me to know of the past, for “If ye don’t know the past, then ye will not have a future. If ye don’t know where your people have been, then ye won’t know where your people are going.”
Forrest Carter, The Education of Little Tree
Thought the book was beautiful and was of course surprised to learn the real identity of the author:
https://www.npr.org/2012/04/20/15103...sa-earl-carter


So - whether you are a New Age believer or Anti-Cultural-Appropriation Warrior – Please, please check your facts!

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