So, God wants us to be perfect, right?

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

You nailed it! And Hi, Molearner! you, too!

Thank you.

[Baile]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Being contrary just because you can is perfect for a discussion on perfection, because saying "I agree" to everything becomes pretty boring sometimes.

This reminds me of my first observation of this forum years ago. Not a spiritual discussion forum, but a place where people come to intellectually argue. A spiritual opinion forum in other words. Fun I guess for the majority of online people, I will acknowledge that. That's the world we live in today. People thrive on the rush of chaos.

And it's precisely why I come back here once a year now. Being contrary just because we can? No, not for me. I believe it's more important to strive to acknowledge meaningful truths regarding our collective humanity and spiritual heritage.

Originally Posted by God-Like

but with the perfection model the unrealized wife beater is just as perfect, but they are not as aligned to what they are that is Love or Self or God .

What model is unrealised? Many things fall apart here for me, with that statement. On a very practical level, Mrs G was abused by her ex-husband for many years. It took me a long time to put her back together again as a person and rid her of so many fears and whatever else. She has three vertebrae in her neck that they won't operate on for fear of paralysing her, and being tail-gated could kill her. Now she knows..... something very different to that. Had the abuse not happened her Life now would be very different, and she also has also forgiven him. She's come a long, long way since we first met and had her marriage been perfect to a self-realised person or someone that had been aligned with Self/God/Love... none of that would have happened.


That for me is the Spiritual Journey, not sitting in a forum discussing the ideology of an imagined vision perfection because really, perfection is relative to one's own agenda. Say what you will, but time and again there are examples that come through where the human Spirit has risen from the depths of adversity and that wouldn't have happened in a 'perfect world'.



If there is such a thing as Life's Purpose or Karmic Obligations? Where does that put not aligned, not realised, not perfect? As a lateral thinker I simply can't focus on just one thing because that would not be alignment for me. I can't but help think "Hang on, what Daz is saying doesn't make sense in the context of Life's Purpose, learning the lessons and a few other things." Regardless of whether your beliefs are that there is a Life's Purpose or not, we as Spirit were under no illusion that this Life would not be a walk in the park but we chose it anyway for our Spiritual Development or whatever other words of that ilk you want to use. We knew this existence would be a long way from perfection, we knew we would not be in alignment nor authentic but... If we chose that anyway?



If everyone was the epitome of Spiritual perfection there would be no Spirituality.

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

What model is unrealised? Many things fall apart here for me, with that statement. On a very practical level, Mrs G was abused by her ex-husband for many years. It took me a long time to put her back together again as a person and rid her of so many fears and whatever else. She has three vertebrae in her neck that they won't operate on for fear of paralysing her, and being tail-gated could kill her. Now she knows..... something very different to that. Had the abuse not happened her Life now would be very different, and she also has also forgiven him. She's come a long, long way since we first met and had her marriage been perfect to a self-realised person or someone that had been aligned with Self/God/Love... none of that would have happened.


That for me is the Spiritual Journey, not sitting in a forum discussing the ideology of an imagined vision perfection because really, perfection is relative to one's own agenda. Say what you will, but time and again there are examples that come through where the human Spirit has risen from the depths of adversity and that wouldn't have happened in a 'perfect world'.



If there is such a thing as Life's Purpose or Karmic Obligations? Where does that put not aligned, not realised, not perfect? As a lateral thinker I simply can't focus on just one thing because that would not be alignment for me. I can't but help think "Hang on, what Daz is saying doesn't make sense in the context of Life's Purpose, learning the lessons and a few other things." Regardless of whether your beliefs are that there is a Life's Purpose or not, we as Spirit were under no illusion that this Life would not be a walk in the park but we chose it anyway for our Spiritual Development or whatever other words of that ilk you want to use. We knew this existence would be a long way from perfection, we knew we would not be in alignment nor authentic but... If we chose that anyway?



If everyone was the epitome of Spiritual perfection there would be no Spirituality.

Not sure G.S. if you have understood what I have been saying, it doesn't look as if you have to be honest .

I have spoken about the perfection model where peeps think they are perfect as they are no matter what, so therefore the wife beater would exercise perfection within their self expression the same as Mother Teresa would .

I have pointed out the differences in expression, so one has to relate to those differences . That is why a Self realized dude doesn't bash their wives .

If you take note of what I said earlier where everything expressed is a perfect reflection of one's self awareness then you will understand how I see perfection panning out .

I actually see 'perfection' as a word that is problematic because it can mean different things to different folk .

I see things being the way they are for a reason and there are no mistakes and no coincidences in these regards .

What can muddy the waters is when we start to say what is humane or right or wrong about what is experienced and expressed .

Like said a peep aligned with God or Self love will not intentionally cause suffering to another being because their awareness and way of living / being will be a perfect reflection of that .

I have said that peeps that bash their wives thinking that they are perfect while doing so reflects a mental state of denial and confusion .

I was at a spiritual church meeting last year and the medium spoke about forgiveness and such likes .

She explained that her daughter was murdered many years ago and as expected found it difficult to cope with .

When the medium found spirituality and started to awaken her gifts so to speak she had communication with her daughter again from the world of spirit .

What was relayed and what was confirmed time and time again by other mediums is that the daughter and her killer pre contracted that experience because of what each other needed to experience .

What is needed or required is normally karmically charged .

So when we look at things like this, then the experience played out perfectly . The murderer played his role perfectly .

Like said 'perfect' is a funny old word and it carries with it a sense of morality and righteousness but behind the scenes there could be something that misses the eye in regards to why things happen as they do .

This is why perfection to some reflects the expression of a saint .



x daz x

Originally Posted by God-Like

So when we look at things like this, then the experience played out perfectly . The murderer played his role perfectly .

Like said 'perfect' is a funny old word and it carries with it a sense of morality and righteousness but behind the scenes there could be something that misses the eye in regards to why things happen as they do .

Which is just what I was saying, pretty much.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Hi 7L, been doing great thanks. You've been in the background too of late, what have you been up to?

I have been lurking J/k...getting out and about, the usual. Mostly hiking and biking on the local trails.

I love Douglas Adams, his material is Spirituality wrapped up in science comedy and often makes more sense than the Spiritual stuff. And he's spot on with the answer to Life, the Universe, Everything but Spiritual people tend to dismiss it. If Toille had said the same thing...

LOL...Adams is more nuanced. That's why many prefer Tolle, hahaha...

There was an ancestor of the chicken which had a genetic anomaly which caused a group of cells that normally would have grown inside the body to fall out of the body, and therefore the egg was born. Genes were passed on, some survived, add in another genetic anomaly or two and you have chickens and eggs. Why bother with Occhams' Razor when there's so much intellectual discussion to be had over a very much more complicated explanation that massages the ego? By the way, did you know humans have sex the way they do thanks to a prehistoric fish? They found the skeletal remains of a fish in the Orkneys that had fins which grasped the female. And it's surprising how much hominid DNA there is at work in Spirituality. Really really. It's been said that if you don't know where you've been you don't know where you're going. What is real to us and what is not real to us is as much decided by the DNA that kept us safe from lions and tigers and bears, oh my, when we first came out of the trees. Did we jump or were we pushed? Being afraid of the dark and only thinking of the light is an avatar of the collective unconsciousness and another survival technique that's often employed by Spiritual people, even to the point of running away from the so-called darkness they think they have inside themselves.

You know as fascinating as the DNA related info is, and it is -- to me what's truly fascinating is the interplay between spirit and DNA/matter.

I had my DNA done per mum, who has really got into this stuff and of course it was kinda snoozeworthy (I am like 95% European, North to South, mainly UK and Western Europe...what a surprise! And a few % other random stuff like "Caucasus", LOL...), even though I know it's all individual and I have my own weird stuff like no gluten and no cow's dairy.

Though, research done on inherited memories and fears and environmental impacts...that stuff is also quite fascinating, the constant interplay between environment, choice, and emotional/spiritual resilience, and expressed DNA outcomes..

I am pretty certain I am who I am because I needed a lot of physical and ancestral strength and constitutional energy to withstand this place and do what I needed to do. Considering what I needed to address and care for and so forth. And considering I can thrive anywhere, once I figured out how to work this incarnation thing as a woman...which is extremely difficult unless you've really got your **** together.

It is nearly beyond explanation or any real understanding the level of mastery of the human condition that is required simply to survive as a woman and then it's another level of mastery all over again to even begin to keep your dignity and maintain your integrity. All simply to get by with nothing in your pocket. It's hugely challenging and I can't really put it into words...that's saying something. I didn't get it quite right the first few times, my spirit was broken, and it didn't end well. You try, try, try again.

Sometimes Douglas Adams needs no salt and there are any number of Spiritual cornerstones that can be paralleled with his caveman, that mentality is still prevalent in the forums if you look closely enough.

It's rampant, for certain

One of the things I had to come to understand and apply is Maslo's Hierarchy of Needs as part of my training the trainers. What you're saying there is on the pyramid of needs - actually much of Spirituality is. It's not that I'm dismissing what you're saying, actually I agree with pretty much all of it. I'm curious as to how something so Spiritual and something that is concerned with psychological needs aren't so far apart after all.

Yes, they're not far apart at all...because all is interconnected. As we were saying with the DNA. Spirit always manifests into the physical, and then so long as the physical exists or endures, there is a constant interaction between them, being all of the same stuff (Source) ultimately.

We've been brought to the brink of war more times than I care to remember in the last couple of years, more times than any other period that I can think of since WWII. Still we manage to avoid it somehow because few want all-out actual war. the fear that makes us go to war is the fear that keeps us away from war. There are so many nukes available by so many powers that, once one nation starts chucking them around every other is going to follow suit. We're not going to avoid war because we're suddenly going to start loving each other, we're going to avoid war because the earth is going to turn into a wasteland for the foreseeable future if someone is stupid enough to press the button.



I don't worry about faith or whether it's about survival or not, I'm here until the time I pop my clogs so the only thing I have to worry about is what happens between now and then. We're not going to get any real answers in this Life, yes we can come up with reasons until the cows come home but there is always something at play beyond our consciousness. I'm doing my best with what little I have.

Never heard of the Berenstein/stain Bears so I had to look them up. It's surprising how the same effect is in Spirituality - that's crazy.

I don't think the world is going to change any time soon and frankly I don't think it should. Mankind has been following the same patterns since... a long time ago and it doesn't look as if that's going to change. But then, that provides the fertile ground and the right growing conditions for a world of authentic Love and everything else you've listed there. Utopia is dystopian, often one another's highest humanity is providing the conditions for the human Spirit to find a way through the trials and tribulations and to rise above them. We all have the potential to do that, yet few want to realise it.

Yes it is! It is interesting how out of any context, we can consciously choose to align with who we are at centre (Love) or not. Coming to the point where we realise that it is about conscious choice in this moment is really the lion's share of the battle and the learning, as you reference. Because with clarity, it all just seems so much easier...as Daz said, who would knowingly do another harm if they have awakened to the Love and worth in every one of us?

Unintended outcomes will always be the bane of our awakened existence. I do feel that, slowly, and with growth, time, and experience, this will be something that we can handle better together over time.

Peace & blessings mate
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by God-Like

The thing is, you can have a wife beater who isn't striving for anything and be tarred with the same perfection brush as the peep whom is of a caring nature who strives for a deeper connection with self .

I can understand and relate to being authentic as said before and alignment is a key factor in all this . This is why I said Self realized peeps don't beat their wives, but with the perfection model the unrealized wife beater is just as perfect, but they are not as aligned to what they are that is Love or Self or God .

Hey there Daz, Yes...there is a lot of confusion and conflation between an acceptance of all that is (everything/one is perfect in this moment because we are all of What Is), versus aligning with our true nature, which involves conscious choice and some level of conscious awareness and reflection on our intent, thought, word, and deed. We all exist in the totality of Perfection That Is (just like the beasts and the air and the sky), but in our individuated self-aware existence, we are always in a state of becoming (or perfecting).

Separate to that (but ALWAYS an ever-present aspect of our existence), we can either consciously engage in our lives or not. And then separate to THAT, we can either consciously choose to align with centre/Centre, or not. Also always an ever-present aspect of our existence. Loads of folks have a lot of trouble accepting ownership for the fuller totality of sentient self-awareness. Which simply reflects where they are at, I figure...in a different time and place, we'll be (hopefully) focusing more as a human community on different aspects of growth and actualisation that become possible once most do begin to take a fuller, deeper ownership of their journey.

So on one had there is only perfection in a way where one's self is perfectly reflected in relation to their current self awareness .

It would be like Dr. Emoto's experiments all resulting in a perfect way based upon the energy subjected to the water molecules .

There will always be perfect results when you look at things from this perspective .

What is important to note however is that there are differences within the results however perfect each result is .

It is the difference that I would say is why peeps do search and strive for alignment to their higher self or to God or whatever word fits the bill .

There can be denial issues amongst other things when a peep thinks they are perfect while causing suffering to others .

This is a mental state that is based upon ignorance and misunderstandings ..

Agreed full stop, with all you say here and above. IMO this is all part of where we are as a human community...many are struggling severely with ownership and there is a lot of denial. Others can manage ownership to some selective degree but only if humanity is the Totality and "replaces" One. Rather than being one with One in the individuated sense that we exist. We either have to reject ownership or be king of the mountain and own everything, LOL...another false dichotomy that keeps many occupied and misdirected, away from the love we are at centre.

This is on par with peeps running around saying there is no-one here ..

There are so many teachings out there now that a peep can take on board all this info without ever sitting quietly with self .

I think in ancient times such knowledge was not available to peeps because peeps were not ready for it .

They had to have the right training / practice / experience / realizations in order to understand them.

x daz x

Yes, very true that.
I think it becomes clear more readily than ever now when folks have (or have not) matured to the point on their journey where they can take ownership and manage their energy and so forth as you've stated elsewhere. But it really is so basic and foundational to the spiritual journey, or, simply, to the journey.

I have really enjoyed reading your thoughts on the topic and those of several others too! Really such a thoughtful thread IMO because we are touching on the pertinent issues of ownership and alignment.

Peace & blessings Dazzer
7L

[davidsun]

Seth's slant on the idea of Perfection, quoted from http://www.valuefulfillment.com/what/essay.html:

"Excellence

Value fulfillment and excellence are intimately intertwined. "Value fulfillment always implies the search for excellence — not perfection, but excellence" (ibid., session 912). Perfection, as our world culture has largely defined it, implies a static state of being, where no future growth or achievement is possible. If we become perfect in every possible way imaginable, I can promise you that we'd be pretty bored. Nor do we evolve into a perfect state of being over many lifetimes as several religious doctrines state.

Seth says excellence provides us with a quality to seek in ourselves and our lives that can always be improved upon at a pace of our choosing. When we begin to recognize that nature itself is filled with intricate "imperfections," we can begin to have a loving regard for our own imperfections and seek excellence in how we conduct our lives."

Originally Posted by Baile

This reminds me of my first observation of this forum years ago. Not a spiritual discussion forum, but a place where people come to intellectually argue. A spiritual opinion forum in other words. Fun I guess for the majority of online people, I will acknowledge that. That's the world we live in today. People thrive on the rush of chaos.

And it's precisely why I come back here once a year now. Being contrary just because we can? No, not for me. I believe it's more important to strive to acknowledge meaningful truths regarding our collective humanity and spiritual heritage.

A tall ship sails more majestically slightly athwart the wind. Yes I will be contrary sometimes and deliberately, but then there's a reason for that. Sometimes in the point versus counterpoint things are brought to the argument that might not have otherwise, it can be just the heat of the moment while engaged in the energy system that builds up. And sometimes I just want to see things from a different perspective.


I've been striving for Spiritual truths in this thread but being honest, there aren't that many. Mind you, the truth is relative to one's own agenda. My own Spiritual heritage has never been about the theologies and ideologies and that seem to be contrary to the mainstream and there are other things that I bring to bear on my Spirituality because, well, I believe there is more to Spirituality than Spirituality. That doesn't seem to sit well with some.

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

I have been lurking J/k...getting out and about, the usual. Mostly hiking and biking on the local trails.

Unfortunately there are a shortage of trails around here but an abundance of secluded beaches so peace isn't that far away.

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

LOL...Adams is more nuanced. That's why many prefer Tolle, hahaha...

Nah, I think it's more about the stocker on the side that says 'This is Spiritual'.

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

You know as fascinating as the DNA related info is, and it is -- to me what's truly fascinating is the interplay between spirit and DNA/matter.

I had my DNA done per mum, who has really got into this stuff and of course it was kinda snoozeworthy (I am like 95% European, North to South, mainly UK and Western Europe...what a surprise! And a few % other random stuff like "Caucasus", LOL...), even though I know it's all individual and I have my own weird stuff like no gluten and no cow's dairy.

Though, research done on inherited memories and fears and environmental impacts...that stuff is also quite fascinating, the constant interplay between environment, choice, and emotional/spiritual resilience, and expressed DNA outcomes..

I am pretty certain I am who I am because I needed a lot of physical and ancestral strength and constitutional energy to withstand this place and do what I needed to do. Considering what I needed to address and care for and so forth. And considering I can thrive anywhere, once I figured out how to work this incarnation thing as a woman...which is extremely difficult unless you've really got your **** together.

It is nearly beyond explanation or any real understanding the level of mastery of the human condition that is required simply to survive as a woman and then it's another level of mastery all over again to even begin to keep your dignity and maintain your integrity. All simply to get by with nothing in your pocket. It's hugely challenging and I can't really put it into words...that's saying something. I didn't get it quite right the first few times, my spirit was broken, and it didn't end well. You try, try, try again.

I remember in the early days I was convinced there were such things as a Life's Purpose, but then I read somewhere that Spirit can't choose the DNA of the body it's born into. If I could so easily have been a leggy blonde with all the accoutrements, what then? It's surprising how much influence DNA and not 'conscious thought' has on your Spirituality.

There have been a few DNA studies done and some of them don't quite agree. The most extensive one says that it all began in Africa with a tribe that also used clicking sounds in their spoken word. A group of them headed out and went east along the coast then down into Australia. Later on they went west into Europe and the like, and obviously into the Americas. From my own DNA I'm more Nordic than Celtic/Pictish because I'm tall and fair-haired with blue eyes. The last battle between the Scots and the Vikings took place less than a couple of miles from here, and Canute (the guy with the sea) was also in the area. It would be interesting to find out, one day.


We have genetic memory apparently, science knows it's there but they can't unlock it. If you could unlock the memories your DNA might hold all the way back to..... what a tale would that tell? Considering what our ancestors might have gone through in their migration from Africa and bearing in mind they would have done it at a time when there was an ice age going on, perhaps there's more history in your DNA than you know that could still affect who and what you are today. Perhaps having your **** together is ingrained into your DNA.


I was watching a sci-fi one day and one of the characters said something that made me stop and think, and while it's true in sci-fi it's also true in Spirituality. Tine travel is a staple in sci-fi and travellers are told to be careful not to change the timeline. What few people do is project that forwards and think of how what we do here today might affect the future. So if you're going to look at DNA history and migration patterns to understand where you've come from, wouldn't it be just as pertinent to at least think about where you might be going? No I'm not talking about divining the future, just thinking about how your past has brought you here and how your 'bigger picture' might look given what you've been through?

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

It's rampant, for certain

We're not hominids any more so we don't need to be scared of the dark, nd it's no longer a question of survival.

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Yes, they're not far apart at all...because all is interconnected. As we were saying with the DNA. Spirit always manifests into the physical, and then so long as the physical exists or endures, there is a constant interaction between them, being all of the same stuff (Source) ultimately.

It's statements like these that make me wonder what's going on. I agree with you whole-heartedly by the way. But if there is a constant interaction (Vesica Pisces at play) why so much Spirit vs human?

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Yes it is! It is interesting how out of any context, we can consciously choose to align with who we are at centre (Love) or not. Coming to the point where we realise that it is about conscious choice in this moment is really the lion's share of the battle and the learning, as you reference. Because with clarity, it all just seems so much easier...as Daz said, who would knowingly do another harm if they have awakened to the Love and worth in every one of us?

Unintended outcomes will always be the bane of our awakened existence. I do feel that, slowly, and with growth, time, and experience, this will be something that we can handle better together over time.

Peace & blessings mate
7L

I've had this discussion before and so far nobody has given me an answer that makes any real sense.



I was once called crazy for this but in one similar discussion I said that I would have liked to thank my abuser for what he did to me, because he was instrumental in making me the person I am today. I couldn't harm another Soul because I know how that feels and if I hadn't been abused perhaps it would have been a different story. And it doesn't stop there, because there's a chain that carries on into my adult Life and how I interact with others.


I'm grateful that I've been a part of some major changes in people's Lives and how they perceive themselves, and that in turn has changed the people they then interact with. None of that would have happened if I hadn't been abused. Granted it's not something I wanted at the time but even that brings so many very Spiritual realisations but now I'm glad it's happened and given the chance I'd do it all again exactly the way it was. So regardless of perfect expression of roles or God-realisation or not, that's what happened and that was the outcome. The world has become a more Loving place as some people at least don't think so badly of themselves and treat others accordingly.



Personally I think there's too much talk of perfection and how we're not it and a long way from enough of making the world a better place in more practical terms. But, each to his/her own.