Removing or not needing Chakras?

[Carnate]

It looks like both posts above consider the chakras to be constructs/tools that are created or adjusted based on a belief in a need for them (or the purpose they serve). As such, they can be further adjusted to suit a different purpose, and other modes of energy transfer be implemented that are perhaps better suited for the task... I'm not convinced of this.

I don't think 'how I work with chakras' is likely to lead into a positive debate here; because I believe the chakras are not 'conceptual shortcuts'. They're not some aspect of our body that is flexible/changeable based on our belief in what they are. As such, how I work with mine isn't really the issue here.. the question here is whether or not they are abstract in nature. To clarify my point of view, I need to reiterate or expand on the purpose that Chakras serve.. and as I've said earlier, I'm not writing this to convince some of the posters above, it's to help people that read this thread make up their own minds with the benefit of additional insight/knowledge. I'm also welcoming counter arguments to this, for the same purpose.

All beings have chakras; humans, animals, rocks, the Earth, angels, spirits, etc. Doing some research into sacred geometry as it relates to chakras will give you additional insight into this. We need them in the specific locations they are in our body. They form a grid around our bodies that aligns with that of God and the universe. Each being comes into existence with these energy points in operation as intended and are ideal for their purpose. In this way, how I believe they operate doesn't change how they actually operate.

It may help to clarify that the difference between our physical realm and the subtle realm is a matter of degrees of vibration. The entirety of this 'wavelength' of expression can be imagined as being 'white', with the octaves within it being the different colours that white breaks down into when passing through a prism. The chakras perform this task of separating out each energy pattern into the right wavelength appropriate for specific organs in your body. The end of each wavelength moves into a new / higher form of expression; like the notes of a keyboard cycling through and back to start again at 'do' (re mi fah so..). Shutting down the chakras prevents this energy from reaching your physical body and removes your connection to the Source. I know this may seem like a positive to some people.. because it could be argued that we are gods in our own right, but we can only make that claim so long as we retain the 'image of god', which is that chakra grid (when explained crudely).


As for instant healing.. I know people who can do this, have seen it.. and at times helped with the process. There are two main ways this happens, one by assisting the body in quickly directing resources to the wound, or by creating/manifesting new matter to construct healthy tissue. In both cases, the subtle bodies are accessed. In the first example, by 'appealing' to the subtle bodies of the wounded individual and providing energy/knowledge of how to heal quickly. In the second example, by creating new matter in the subtle realms (from ether) and then lowering its vibrationary level to the point where it manifests in the physical. Of course, there are a number of variations of each technique.. but I don't want to get tied down explaining these. But the core concept remains the same; chakras are needed to connect to the subtle realms and access the matter within them.

Events of bi-location, levitation, men lactating (as referenced above) aren't strictly linked to chakras, so whether someone describes them by way of 'chakra energy' or not isn't really relevant. Chakras serve their purpose in these (and a great many other 'supernatural' events), but how these are achieved goes well beyond an understanding / belief in how the chakras function. Stating that chakras aren't needed in these acts doesn't imply that chakras aren't needed at all.

Well yes and no. I believe the chakra to be energy constructs, but living in a concensus reality as we do on this plane of existence I don't thnk we can adjust the chakra at will to mean whatever we wish them to be. As I said in my previous post their usefullness has subsided in light of the solidified beliefs about them.
I asked about your chakra work because it mght help those who want to make up ther mind about it how you as a strong defender of their existence and need utilize them in practical application, Anyway our premisses on the chakra are different. So let's leave it at that.

I agree with your statement that every being is born with energypoints. Like I said in earlier posts most cultures have some description of them, only a few or even 1 of those cultures, spiritual schools has expaded on the chakra's. Others describe the human energy system in a different way and utlizes their possibilities with different emphases. What is comparable though is that most use a system of visualization and vibrational tools(herbs, scents, massages, chants and trances) to manipulate their energyfields.

As for the chakra grid being us in the image of god? That's THE concept that triggered a lot of people I know to remove their chakra systems. Feeling that this image is a manipulation tool used by these so called gods to keep humanity as a slave race. I am no longer saying that this is so. Just that instead of gods in our own right(which implies some omniversal presense of being) we are the creators of our experience and together as a concensus reality we create what life on this planet looks and feels like. So the more the idea of chakra came to be common new age knowledge the more it was so..

It is obvious that you truly believe they are a part of your and everybody elses make-up and as needed as the heart. Without which animal/human life would not exists on this planet.
If I held such a belief, I would find it hard to truth someone who says that I can live without it.

Different than living without a heart, which I never heard anywone claim to have lived on without. There are numerous peopel who claimed to have removed their chakra constructs and actually felt better. Most of these people did not do that lightly. Most had a working knowledge with and hands on experience in working with their own chakra's some were experienced in working on a therapeutic basis with other peoples chakra's.

Now we cannot know anything about their actual expeirence other than what is told or written. Which makes the whole subject of energy fields so debatable. Everyone has an opinion, but we lack visible proof like a beating heart we can feel and even see.
THat said It is my experience that yes I have an energy field.
Yes it is intricately connected to my physical manifestation.
Yes there are points in this field which allow for manipulation. No these points in my experience do no longer correspond with the chakra as they are popularly depicted and explaned.
I have felt energyvorteces as described in chakra books and websites. I have worked extensively for prolonged periods of times to improve myself through chakra work.
Even though personal experience in working with chakra doesn't help this discussion or so I am told. I believe it does help in trying to understand where we are coming from. Wich bagage we use to view and relate to our experience. So yeah.

So far the idea you are conveying is that your knowledge about chakra come part from personal experience in working with them, but for a large part based on discussion with a broad scala of paranormaly gifted friends am I correct?

With Love
Eelco

[Melahin]

@carnate there are other ways you can do instant healing. Like I once looked into the whole teleportation thing, and found something far more interesting. Our world is not actually round, that is simply just how it appears to us (or at least I guess most of us). Neither are sitting close to some and far away from others, that is just how it appears. In reality this reality () is layer upon layer upon layer, and if you are in one place and want to go to a place far away, you can simply just shift the way you perceive these layers so where you are and where you wish to go lies next to each other, and simply walk from one layer straight into the next. In the same way there are these layers of reality, so if one has cut himself, equally there is a layer of reality where the only difference is that he has not cut himself at all, and you could simply just focus that layer of reality into focus, rather than the one in which you have cut yourself. Now in reality it seems like you have instantly healed yourself, when in reality you never actually cut yourself.

If we talk about the chakras, they are but a layer of existence within you, and like I did, you can simply just peel it of and you will have another system in place in there that makes the transition smooth, (or your subconscious will replace it which is tomato tomato)... so all it takes is for you to relax into that energy and let it flow, rather than lets use the word freak out, because feeling negative is an indication that you are blocking your source energy, which then makes you feel disconnected. Though if you have been sad, angry will make you feel more connected; it is just not the feeling of being connected to your absolute well-being (tantra calls this Anandamaya Kosha when there is no distortion between your inner being and outer reality).

Since you feel fearful about what happens if you remove your chakras should be an indication that you are not in alignment with your inner being on this subject.

Still since you have not received the notion to remove them should equally tell you that your inner being does not see removing them as the best path for you right now, though you do still seem intrigued and curious about it all... though it might be too much for you to accept from your current belief. And even if you find that removing the chakras possible is not the same that not having chakras is the path for you. Maybe we all (or most of us) were born with chakras? Maybe Earth and animals have this in store also. But just maybe as many talk about how the energy grid (or what we call it) for Earth is being upgraded, maybe this goes as well for humans, and the next step in the evolution of our being is a vastly different energy system?

In tantra as far as I understood it, the work with the chakras had one purpose only, and it was not survival. It was to make the kundalini rise and attain godhood.

I do know this, that a lesser force is always at the mercy of a greater force, and there is no greater force in you than your desire to feel good. Nothing outside of you is greater than this drift within you. When a perspective is so vastly different like this of removing your chakras (not shutting them down), it probably stirs something up in you. If you cling to your old belief, then fearful thoughts of what might happen if you did this unbelievable idea might surface. Yet if we understand these fears as an indication that we are seeing this different than our inner being, our greater self, our source, then we can start to lean towards the better feeling perspective of what actually is known. Yet we struggle with this often because we have practiced a momentum that can be very difficult to not pay attention to. Like let us take the ego as in this force inside us that keep us from our oh so goodness. None of us was born with it, so where does it come from? Simply said it is a momentum of thought we have practiced that is in an opposition with how we desire to feel in life, and since it is a well practiced momentum at the time we start to notice it, then it can be quite difficult to overhear it. But it is not something within us, it simply is a way of being we have practiced. Good so how do we turn this around? We practice feeling good

Now imagine you stand in a hall and behind a door is a room. If the door is closed you have no access, but if you open it you have access. If you remove that door do you then also remove the access?

[Carnate]

I'm going to pull this apart a little bit to make it easier to see where my responses fit. And pull it apart some more so you can see some flaws in this logic.

Originally Posted by Melahin

In reality this reality () is layer upon layer upon layer, and if you are in one place and want to go to a place far away, you can simply just shift the way you perceive these layers so where you are and where you wish to go lies next to each other, and simply walk from one layer straight into the next. In the same way there are these layers of reality, so if one has cut himself, equally there is a layer of reality where the only difference is that he has not cut himself at all, and you could simply just focus that layer of reality into focus, rather than the one in which you have cut yourself.

We looking at two different concepts here. The bending of space and time, and overlapping this to the infinite dimensions theory. While I can accept that teleportation is possible, potentially as you describe it, healing through linking to alternate 'yous' only applies if there were countless variations of the physical dimension where anything/everything is possible. I'd also argue that if people could heal in this manner, they would simply find that 'them' which lived in the ideal and most evolved dimension and 'be' there. This also doesn't consider how these variations of 'you' interact, if you take on the aspect of a healed person, are you essentially moving into that dimension and cease to exist in the other one, or something else? Does the healing also force everyone else in one dimension to shift to the new one.. otherwise they wouldn't perceive anything different. Or does the old 'discarded' dimension cease to exist for everyone? There's a lot of problems that I think you may struggle with answering..

I'll side-step this topic because I don't believe there are infinite dimensions as this theory stands. To suggest that there are infinite dimensions made for each choice and option we make, implies that there's a benefit in experiencing and maintaining all the variants of the 'worst possible' choices we could make; and it appears as though this doesn't fit with your current mindframe. We have infinite possibilities in terms of how each person wants to shape their future, but this doesn't equate to each choice being made separating out into new 'dimension streams' to experience and learn from each avenue. And I'll clarify here to avoid further debate on this topic, infinite possibilities doesn't imply that those possibilities include 'it's safe to remove your chakras'.

Originally Posted by Melahin

..so all it takes is for you to relax into that energy and let it flow, rather than lets use the word freak out, because feeling negative is an indication that you are blocking your source energy, which then makes you feel disconnected. Though if you have been sad, angry will make you feel more connected; it is just not the feeling of being connected to your absolute well-being (tantra calls this Anandamaya Kosha when there is no distortion between your inner being and outer reality).

Since you feel fearful about what happens if you remove your chakras should be an indication that you are not in alignment with your inner being on this subject.

I'm going to put forward a silly argument here to help you see why being fearful of chakra removal does not indicate a mis-alignment.

"We're going to cut off your arms. Now I can see you have some reservations about this, perhaps some fear about the process.. but you should keep in mind that this fear is an indication that you need to be properly aligned. To help, we're going to remove them, which will release those blocks and bring you back into a pure state."

The point I'm making is being fearful of 'x' doesn't necessarily indicate that it should be done. There are a great many things in this world that deserve to be feared and avoided. Fear serves a purpose.

I'll go on to say that negative emotions aren't 'bad'. We should be happy when we feel anger, sad, jealous, envy, etc. They let us know which areas of our life needs changing, and prompt us to make those changes. It's more of a problem when we cease to feel emotions.. that's when there's a blockage.

Originally Posted by Melahin

In tantra as far as I understood it, the work with the chakras had one purpose only, and it was not survival. It was to make the kundalini rise and attain godhood.

I'm likely going to cop some flak by saying this, but kundalini energy leans towards the 'dark' side of the spectrum. It's often forceful and deliberate, and doesn't stop if things get too difficult for the person or if they're not ready for those energies to flow through them. Most people these days have the wrong idea about it, and make use of kundalini energy incorrectly. If you hear from people that have had bad experiences with spirituality, it's often as a result of kundalini energy rising before they are ready. I'm not saying it doesn't have its place and purpose that is connected with the Light, only that people are too readily and willingly making use of a technique that isn't suitable for them.

As such, the chakras are not specifically there for kundalini energy. The 'kundalini rising' isn't a goal in and of itself.. it's used to clear blockages and properly align the chakras so they can function at a higher level, and even then, only under certain circumstances.

Originally Posted by Melahin

If you cling to your old belief, then fearful thoughts of what might happen if you did this unbelievable idea might surface.

Old beliefs are often old because they have lasted the test of time.. they are concrete, or immutable things that have lasted decades or millennia because they are true. Saying it's 'old' doesn't mean it's outlived its usefulness or can be discarded.

Originally Posted by Melahin

Now imagine you stand in a hall and behind a door is a room. If the door is closed you have no access, but if you open it you have access. If you remove that door do you then also remove the access?

What your suggesting isn't removing the door.. removing the charkas removes the entire building.

never mind this post

with love
Eelco

[Melahin]

Originally Posted by Carnate

And pull it apart some more so you can see some flaws in this logic.

How can a perfect world have flaws?

Let me clarify that I am not talking about infinite dimensions but infinite potential realities that you can tap into. Some are far from where you potentially are, while others are rather close. I guess you might be confused on a point of this being one world when I actually perceive it as being loads of subjective worlds blending together into one shared space. I do find it interesting that you argue something I have never talked about, it is interesting, right Everyone, and I mean everyone are always and constantly trying to move towards their best feeling self. No one, and I will clarify, no one wants to bad, yet the beauty here is the worse you feel the more clear you will also be about how good you want to feel. Still this does not mean people purposely are seeking feeling bad, it is just that the further they get from their source of feeling good, the more the desire to close that gap becomes. Is that not reassuring (and amazing) that we are always pulled in the best possible direction by our inner guidance system?

Now again if my world and your world is not the same, then maybe what is necessary in your world might not be necessary in mine. Still I stand on my point that what is possible in one world is possible in all worlds.

Agreed. You feeling fearful about it is an indication that you should leave it alone. I don't believe you have heard any of us say @carnate please remove your chakras. We have actually stated that it might from your current perspective be most healthy that you keep them. We also get that your current belief is too far away from a reality where you can see this as a possibility. But can you grasp the possibility of a space where opposing beliefs can perfectly co-exist?

I agree that some like with Kundalini find themselves in struggle because their desire for something is stronger than they allow it in, so they constantly bump against the resistance they put on their own path.

But no there's nothing you talk about in your post (of the things that relate to what I said) that I struggle in explaining, I just have no interest in explaining them in detail, since words don't teach, and I have more fun thing to do than continue this conversation. Have fun!!

[Carnate]

Originally Posted by Melahin

I guess you might be confused on a point of this being one world when I actually perceive it as being loads of subjective worlds blending together into one shared space.

It could be a semantic barrier here.. but subjective means that it's based on feelings or opinions. It looks as though you're suggesting that each world is different for each person based on what each individual beliefs to be true.. and we simply inhabit the same space. This is an interesting concept, but it doesn't fit with our reality. If my 'subjective world' is one where the Earth is flat, this is going to cause problems if I am in the same airplane as someone who's 'subjective world' is one where the Earth is spherical. There are any number of other examples I could give where the idea of subjective worlds doesn't make sense. I may adjust my perception of aspects of this world, but, as an example, how we interact with the Earth (as flat/spherical) remains consistent regardless of who is perceiving it. How I believe my chakras operate doesn't change their core function.. similarly, taking on a belief in a 'subjective worlds' theory, doesn't change or alter how the world actually 'is'. Making use of an example I gave earlier, me believing the Earth is flat doesn't let me walk to the edge and take a photo... and me believing that removing my chakras is beneficial doesn't mean that it is (for me or anyone else).

I've said fairly often that there is a true and false in this matter. There are our beliefs, and these change as we evolve.. we even perceive the world differently as we develop physically and spiritually. But our world and the universal laws that govern it are fixed.. We simply adjust our beliefs and perceptions as we progress.

As another example, gravity works a specific way.. there are numerous theories about the why and the how of it, but the truth of the matter doesn't change depending on our level of understanding of how/why. The laws that are in place that dictate how gravity, time, energy, etc behave are 'set in stone' because they are essential for the continued operation/functioning of our reality. I'm not able to suddenly decide that (for me) electricity actually flows in the opposite direction, and expect that reality to become true for me/everyone.

Originally Posted by Melahin

I do find it interesting that you argue something I have never talked about

In any discussion, there's going to be some form of miscommunication, and when this occurs, we need to reiterate our meaning; as you partly did above. I may still have the wrong idea about what you're talking about, and expanding on your words will help avoid debate in the wrong areas. In a similar way.. "it is interesting, right " can be interpreted a number of ways. What you imply and what I infer may be completely different.

You sir have a clever way with words. This hasn't been the open discussion or debate you talked about. This is word smithery. Up until 2 posts ago I hoped you were truly trying to come to grips with a different point of view than your own.

When I first removed my chakra I felt the need to warn everyone about their dangers. Over time and with a lot of good discussion I changed my perspective ever so slightly so I could incorporate other points of view as well. Specifically the fact that certain chakra work does tend to give expected and seemingly stable results.

You sir just don't seem willing to discuss options, but through word smithery paint your picture with about as much proof of your truth than any of us.

If anything... I find that an ugly human trait. But hey don't take my word for it.

Eelco

[Melahin]

@carnate I am not going to open a new conversation so I will end with this.

I will agree on this: But our world and the universal laws that govern it are fixed... but I will not call it a law, I will call it nature. Every being that is attracted to this universe is attracted because it loves the inherent nature of it and the possibilities it gives, and on that point no being is actually interested in changing its nature (what some call law), or its own nature for that sake (so in that way I guess we can call it fixed). Expansion might change the way it perceives itself, but its nature is what it is, and what it constantly grows into, the same with this world and the universe. What I have noticed from hands on experience is that the nature is attraction based (I believe I call it resonance?), so what you focus on becomes more and more until you recognize it as a truth, because your focus on it have made it such. This explains exactly why seemingly opposing truths can co-exist in harmony. How far this goes is a good question that I will enjoy exploring more and more, because it is our desire to come here, and enjoy this world in the unfolding of our nature and expansion of our being, that draws us into this world... though if people have other stories that works for them, read makes them happy, then please keep at it.

Thanks for the talk @carnate

[Carnate]

Originally Posted by catsquotl

You sir have a clever way with words. This hasn't been the open discussion or debate you talked about. This is word smithery. Up until 2 posts ago I hoped you were truly trying to come to grips with a different point of view than your own.

Eelco

Sorry to see you have come to this conclusion. I do have an open mind, and have spent a good amount of time trying to find reliable resources to back up the idea of removing chakras. But I said a while ago, that people here are likely to be unable to change each other's minds.. and I suggested that the thread move to a sharing of information to help other people make up their own minds.

I have read and tried to understand your views, and even supported some of them. But the core function of a debate is to work out the finer details of the matter.. there are two opposing sides here, and a back and forth discussion needs to happen in order to determine where truth lies; in so far as that truth can be determined. My 'way with words' likely stems from a long history of learning and knowledge on spiritual matters... well, I have a keen interest in a lot of things. But this doesn't mean I'm right..

I'm going to encourage you to continue the conversation, not with the goal of changing each others mind, but to share information. Again, this isn't just for our sake, but to help other people that stumble upon this thread.

Where I'm struggling to see your side of this picture is with details about how energy flows or changes when chakras are removed.. how are our various bodies connected, how do we commune with our higher self, or make contact with spirits while in physical form? There's a lot of questions about the mechanics of a body without chakras that I'm not clear on. As an example, if not through your third eye, how does your pineal gland receive information from (eg) the astral plane? Or said differently, how does one without a third eye chakra continue to see spirits or experience psychic phenomena? Is the pineal gland no longer needed as another mechanic steps in..? What happens.. and why is this more beneficial?

Most of the comments I've responded to have been about beliefs and opinions... but there's little of real substance that I can grasp and understand. I keep thinking.. "why discuss this in relation to beliefs.. there has to be a better reason to make such a bold move". I've been hoping to hear these reasons without prompting you. But here's your chance, if you're willing.