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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > General Beliefs

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  #11  
Old 20-11-2019, 10:34 PM
Native spirit Native spirit is online now
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Have to agree with Little creek it is all about control


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  #12  
Old 21-11-2019, 07:48 AM
Altair Altair is offline
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Common threads in mainstream religions...

1] Belief in an afterlife and souls/divine essence.
2] A need to be ''saved'' through a god or holy man, through either faith or good work.
3] Pyramid structure in the form of priests, monks, students, followers.
4] Belief that there's a cosmic sense of right and wrong, and reward and punishment.
5] Belief in angels and demons, heavens and hells.

If you check early civilization or pre-civilization groups you don't always find the above, but [1] seems to be universal in all spiritual paths.

Quote:
Originally Posted by inavalan
I agree: all of them end up being about control.

Most religious and spiritual movements start from a need to share and interpret unexplainable experiences, but in time that gets distorted such that the original spark is unrecognizable.

It's kind of already distorted with the first person, who tries to make sense of the ''experience'' through use of language, concepts, and feelings..

In a real practical sense, what matters are ethics that are applicable, such as ''don't steal'' or ''help the old lady pass the street''. To society at large, it's not so much the experience that matters but the outcome, how did/does it make improve life?

Last edited by Altair : 21-11-2019 at 08:57 AM.
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  #13  
Old 21-11-2019, 03:50 PM
Jainarayan Jainarayan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lemex
Then this is their mistake is it not. They all are about control (authority).

I was asking how those religions can be considered to be controlling, when there are no central authorities in those religions.
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  #14  
Old 21-11-2019, 04:08 PM
Jainarayan Jainarayan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Creek77
Those religions are found in cultures who have a ruling class of people. They are the central authority. Often they claim to represent God, thus their rule is the rule of God. That make their rule the ultimate rule (Laws). Religion is all about social order and control.

In tribal societies like pre-Christian Europe people were free to dismiss the gods and religious practices. The leaders or rulers were sometimes religious leaders in the sense of conducting rituals and being intermediaries between the gods and humans, a focal point. More often than not there were priests and priestesses who filled that role, but they did not make laws or rules. What kept cohesion was common tradition. That was something even the rulers kept to. The rulers and elite did not make laws based on their religions, the population already knew the rules. Moreover, what are the central authorities today in those religions that exert control? I am an Italian-American Hindu living in the US. Who is controlling me vis-à-vis my religion? I am subject to the civil laws of the US, but what religious authority as a Hindu am I subject to?
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  #15  
Old 21-11-2019, 04:27 PM
lemex lemex is online now
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All of the many religions and such also have the thread of us. As has been mentioned we see ideas we can understand. For instance the idea of heaven and hell is often used to be a difference but it is not, it is a level. This is a common theme, is it not? Rituals and practices are common in every one I know of. Existence in the afterlife. iow we do all the same "things" someone else does. That is the similarity of consciousness.

The most common thread in every one religion is the subject of love. It is not different. It is all of our belief (believing) where the common thread became unique to followers. We are told of differences and how to be and remain in difference. I really haven't gone too deep only touching on sameness but I think I see what should be also included in the threads is confusion or us. I can look at a practice and say wow, that's pretty much what I do. I can understand the consciousness. I know why it's done as I do it, albeit different but not different in consciousness. I think confusion is a common thread and any difference can be a choice.
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  #16  
Old 21-11-2019, 05:07 PM
lemex lemex is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jainarayan
I was asking how those religions can be considered to be controlling, when there are no central authorities in those religions.
I would think these systems have teachers, rules, leadership and some centralized text. Does a system teach it's the only way? I am aware it happens and so ask. In some systems, people can be ostracized or excommunicated without their consent. So forms of coercion, I would consider elements associated to control if it were part of a system, that would be the attempt to.

It's said for instance new age belief is an example of a system having no central authority, no formal teachers, teaching, no formal text, even no building or places. Me, I'm a new age christian. Being told has always been a form of control, look at how it is used in society.
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  #17  
Old 21-11-2019, 06:10 PM
Jainarayan Jainarayan is offline
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I'm glad you asked!

Quote:
Originally Posted by lemex
I would think these systems have teachers, rules, leadership and some centralized text.
Teachers, yes. But in many different schools, sects, denominations and traditions. Hinduism, for example, is not one religion. It is actually an umbrella term for what may be hundreds of beliefs and traditions, bound by a few basic concepts: karma and rebirth, the validity of the Vedas (though only a small percentage of Hindus have ever read them) as being apauruṣeya, i.e. "not of man", "divine", the ātman ("soul") and its relationship to Brahman.

It sounds chaotic but it's really not. It's viewed like the parable of the blind men and the elephant. We (in this case a particular school, sect or tradition) see only part of the whole. No single group has the patent on the truth. It's a matter of attitude, and why the various sects get along. In my temple, a Vishnu temple, we have a plethora of deities. I'm Vaishnava, devotee of Vishnu, but I go to the Shiva sanctum for worship also; Shaiva priests participate in Vishnu worship. We do this because we understand that no one of us has the only right way. And because there is no authority that tells us we cannot do this.

You will not find Orthodox or Catholics taking communion in each others' churches... because church law is that you cannot. I was Catholic, then Orthodox. At Easter time in the OC the priest used to announce at communion time that for any non-Orthodox visitors, please do not approach for communion. So, is this not the body and blood of Christ for a Catholic, or Anglican, or Lutheran too? The Orthodox Church says no.

Quote:
Does a system teach it's the only way? I am aware it happens and so ask. In some systems, people can be ostracized or excommunicated without their consent. So forms of coercion, I would consider elements associated to control if it were part of a system, that would be the attempt to.

No, there is nothing like that in these traditions, probably because they are intertwined with culture and a way of life. One may not religiously or ritually practice as a Hindu, but one can live as a Hindu.

All of these traditions, or religions have universalism in common. They all believe that all religions and ways of life are valid, that there is no one correct way. Hinduism is right for a Hindu, Buddhism for a Buddhist, Christianity for a Christian, and so on. This is the view of these non-monotheistic religions. But this doesn't hold true for Christianity or Islam. They teach that their way is the only right way for everyone.

Quote:
It's said for instance new age belief is an example of a system having no central authority, no formal teachers, teaching, no formal text, even no building or places. Me, I'm a new age christian. Being told has always been a form of control, look at how it is used in society.
Agreed.
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  #18  
Old 21-11-2019, 10:00 PM
Altair Altair is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jainarayan
I was asking how those religions can be considered to be controlling, when there are no central authorities in those religions.

There always are authorities, down to a local level. There are always leaders and followers in all walks of life. There are always power dynamics everywhere, if not formally than they will be there spontaneously. Some people seize it, most don't. But it happens, always.

So while Hinduism may not have a central authority that rules over it entirely like the Pope does with Catholicism, it does have authorities at a more localized and community level. Also, this isn't yet getting into the authority that books or deities may have, which is pretty much a building block of a religion. :-)
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  #19  
Old 22-11-2019, 02:04 AM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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What is so bad about "control" and "being controlled" anyway?

A heck of a lot of people have absolutely NO "self-control" and left to their own devices, would only continue to lie to themselves and make excuses as to how and why they don't need anybody else to help them...meanwhile, their life falls apart and then they just say "well, that was meant to happen".

The armed forces is all about "control" as well, but we need them to defend the country, isn't it?

There are many people out there (myself included) who are pretty pathetic when it comes to self-discipline, willpower, motivation and all that kind of stuff...there are some people out there who need to be "controlled" for their own good because absolutely nothing else could possibly stuff up their life more than they have already managed to do themselves..however, in order to be "controlled" and for our ego to be subdued, we must abandon any notion of "likes" and "wants" and "preferences" and "desires"....we cannot walk into an established religious tradition and go "I don't like that...I don't accept that...I like this...I will do this, but I will not do that..." because whomever is in charge will simply tell them to get lost isn't it? Then they will say "what a stupid thing religion is because it is not letting me do whatever the hell I want..all those things that I feel entitled to do... stupid religion..."
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  #20  
Old 22-11-2019, 05:55 PM
Little Creek77 Little Creek77 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jainarayan
In tribal societies like pre-Christian Europe people were free to dismiss the gods and religious practices. The leaders or rulers were sometimes religious leaders in the sense of conducting rituals and being intermediaries between the gods and humans, a focal point. More often than not there were priests and priestesses who filled that role, but they did not make laws or rules. What kept cohesion was common tradition. That was something even the rulers kept to. The rulers and elite did not make laws based on their religions, the population already knew the rules. Moreover, what are the central authorities today in those religions that exert control? I am an Italian-American Hindu living in the US. Who is controlling me vis-à-vis my religion? I am subject to the civil laws of the US, but what religious authority as a Hindu am I subject to?

What elements in your religion would be helpful for the ruling class in India? How does your religion condition your thinking and behavior to make it more compatable to advance the ruling class goals??
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