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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Non Duality

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  #1  
Old 16-09-2016, 11:43 AM
Joe Mc Joe Mc is offline
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Free Will vs Divine Ordaination

We have been discussing lately the idea of free will and destiny and was wondering if anyone has any views on this very interesting subject ?
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  #2  
Old 16-09-2016, 12:49 PM
MaryMagdaQueenofQueens MaryMagdaQueenofQueens is offline
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Free will and destiny are interesting topics because if we say we have destiny then how are we capable of free will. If indeed our destiny is a path chosen that we will fullfill then in free will are we capable of making decisions that will lead us astray or are the decisions we make that we feel guilt for or get a bad reaction Negating us from our true purpose.
Or is destiny and free will more grey, a path chosen with sets of experiences, that no matter what choice is made, will always lead to the end source. Never diverging from the path...

After all, does the rain cloud Cry out in despair after it has Sent floods forth upon humanity and struck down the king of the city with lightening?
Or is it still Just the rain Cloud.
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  #3  
Old 16-09-2016, 12:59 PM
barrynu barrynu is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaryMagdaQueenofQueens
Or is destiny and free will more grey, a path chosen with sets of experiences, that no matter what choice is made, will always lead to the end source. Never diverging from the path...

Yes!!...........I like this Idea.I have thought like this before but its great to see it written down
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  #4  
Old 17-09-2016, 12:42 AM
firstandlast firstandlast is offline
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Freewill and destiny are reconciled in this manner--

If all forms arise in relation to another form that defines it as so, such as darkness to define the light, and light to define the darkness-- Than our highest ideal self is only available when others are in such a position as to make me so-- Which means, the difference between spirit and material in this degree is that ability for you to choose what is in your heart at all times which means you are in a relationship with everything that allows them to do the same; so it is simultaneously free will and destiny that everyone should become themselves, because only by such a way can everybody act according to the one that they are in the form as many as they appear; because when everything is itself, everything in relation to it will define it as so; and their own heart would be filled with joy because they are simply being themselves and the universe is in accord with it--

That is there is a destined order, but that order is free to be itself--
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  #5  
Old 18-09-2016, 01:17 PM
Within Silence Within Silence is offline
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I think that the problem of answering the question of whether or not we have freewill or is our life the result of divine destiny are the result of words and also the belief in the concept of time. And so to use more words in an attempt to solve a problem which is created by words is to compound the problem, to use the cause of the problem in an attempt to solve it, which cannot be done. In other words, the answer cannot be expressed in words, but only silently observed by oneself, Now. One must observe one self as it moves through life, observe oneself without any verbal dialogue taking place, with labeling anything, without judging, without thought, without comparison, without thinking that the past "could have" been different, as there is no "the past" in actuality, but only memories/thoughts of the past, and the past or what happened in the past cannot ever be different than it was. Now, the thing to see is that the past is 1 second ago, in fact less than that, in fact there is no space or "time" between each second because seconds themselves are an illusion, they are a fragmentation of the ever present moment, as, there is no pause in life, no space between this second or the next, which gives the illusion of time, there is only and ever movement, ever continuos momentum, change is the only constant, and it is the rate of change, or the measurement of change which we call time. But when we see that everything is "ever" changing, we realize that we are now and have always been in the eternal momentum (moment) as there is nothing else. To help see this, go and get the past, go change what you said or did in the past, this cannot be done and it is in seeing this that you realize that your whole life is the result of cause & effect, not free will. In other words, you simply react to some stimulus which then causes another stimulus which you react to and on and on and on. And there are so many things we simply do not control, for example:
Did you create the color of your eyes?
Did your parents create the color of your eyes? Tell them to explain to you how they did it.
Did you create the color of your child's eyes? Explain in exact detail how you did it. Don't say "my" genetics did it, but explain step by step the process you created to do it.
If you have an itch you scratch it, did you create the itch?
If you have to use the bathroom you do, how did you digest the food? Explain in exact detail how you crated the acids in the stomach used to digest food.
If a thought arises in the mind, you either react to it or ignore it, did you think to create the thought? Do you think to think? No it happens.

So, as I see it, all of life is the result of spontaneous arising, and there is no first cause, no beginning and thus no ending, only ever continuos change.

So when you begin to observe your life, you begin to see how little control (other than how you react to life) you have. Thus its been said that life is not so much what you make it, but more important is how you take it, thus how you react to your immediate present situation/experience, to what is right before you is really all that matters. Many of us spend much time lost in our thoughts about the past during the present moment, thinking and thinking as if all these thoughts could somehow cause the past to be different than it actually was, and they cannot. To prove this to yourself go change the past, go undo what you did or said, go cause someone else who said or did something you didn't agree with to undo what they did. Cause the future to be exactly what you think its going to be, cause it to be what you think/assume/believe it "should be". This is not to say that you don't have options/choices right now that were influenced by the past, and that will help influence the future, but that all your power resides in the present and in actuality you don't know how it will absolutely influence the future. Remember, what you think, is just what you think, I know this sounds simple, but when you really look into it it is profound. For example; if I think so and so doesn't like me, this is my thought, not theirs. If I think so and so should have done this or that, this is only my thought and just like myself the past cannot be changed, and no one could have acted different in the past then they actually acted, and so my thought of the past is just that, my thought about it. <that is a profound thing to realize. No one could have acted different than they did in the past, including you, as everyone is doing exactly what they believe they needed to do when they did it, and many of our actions/reactions are the result of habits, unconscious reactions, preprogrammed and conditioned responses without our consciously choosing them. Again, when you begin to really consciously watch your self as you go through life, observe the thoughts that arises in reaction to exterior stimulus, you'll see just how programmed we all are, and how many of our actions are the result of habitual thought patterns. Did you use your free will to create these habitual thought patterns? Can you change them? Did you use your free will to create the way your brain is wired?

So, as I see it, we are unconditionally free, not that we don't need to take responsibility for ourselves, but that we are free to choose how we will react to whatever the moment brings before us, and it is in this moment that we help to shape the future which then becomes the past. In other words, the more present you're based, the more conscious and aware choices you make, then the less you need to regret the unconscious habitual reactions you made in the past. Thus spirituality is all about present moment awareness, waking up is to be present, focused now, attentive to whatever the moment brings, to be awake, alive, aware, attentive, alert, allowing, accepting, aligning yourself with now and in being these your attitude and actions will change. Its hard to explain, but you don't need to try to do these thing, just like you don't need to try to find the present moment, its all right here and now. The problem we have is we leave it to go find it, we leave now to go get the past, we leave now to project into the future. Actually all of this takes place now but I must use words to point to it. Really it all comes down to is WHERE IS YOUR ATTENTION FOCUSED? Upon what period of your life is the foundation of your life based? Are you lost in the past, worried about the future or being right now?

So, after my long winded rambling the point is, there is no need to figure out if we have free will or not, just enjoy your life, live in the moment with the freedom and unrestrained creativity and imagination of a child. Be,...... as children.
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Old 18-09-2016, 03:22 PM
William 辰 William 辰 is offline
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@Within Silence
I agree it's very important to live in the now. But right now you can use free will to change reality any way you like. You can consciously choose your thoughts long enough until they start to come to you unconsciously. That way you also change the way your brain is wired. It is the same with repeating something until you can do it; you use free will to change the way your brain is wired.

Make no mistake however, I do believe in divine will, just not in destiny or fate. Because as long as you have free will, you have the free will to ignore destiny. Which means destiny is something you create right now. It's just that you can not un-know what you know. So I think you'll sort of automatically choose the best path for you and those around you.
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Old 18-09-2016, 04:43 PM
r6r6r r6r6r is offline
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Cat Divine = Spirit-of-Intent

Our human access to metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts and the resultant spirit-of-intent, means that what is near top of list of what is divine, is our seeming free will abilities.

Di = 2

Vine = woody plant that grows along or just under surface of dirt, and will climb vertically on a pole, tree etc...

One definition could be as 2 vines = most complex woman Xx and man Xy.

r6
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  #8  
Old 18-09-2016, 07:08 PM
Within Silence Within Silence is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by William 辰
@Within Silence
I agree it's very important to live in the now. But right now you can use free will to change reality any way you like. You can consciously choose your thoughts long enough until they start to come to you unconsciously. That way you also change the way your brain is wired. It is the same with repeating something until you can do it; you use free will to change the way your brain is wired.

Make no mistake however, I do believe in divine will, just not in destiny or fate. Because as long as you have free will, you have the free will to ignore destiny. Which means destiny is something you create right now. It's just that you can not un-know what you know. So I think you'll sort of automatically choose the best path for you and those around you.

If you believe in free will that is fine by me. If others do not, that is also fine by me, as neither of these beliefs cause free will to exist or not exist. Just like all the belief for God cannot cause there to be one if the fact is there isn't one, and vice versa. Everything is as it is, life is a spontaneous happening to which we react. Yes we have choice, but are compelled to choose, and to not choose is also the result of compulsion/urge/impulse/desire, which is not free-will. Our whole existence is the result of compulsion/urge/impulse/desire. Its all one movement, but the mind likes to divide everything up into fragments.


There is no one who has freewill, as, if one had freewill then it could use freewill to choose not to use freewill, yet this is impossible, because there is no one with a will which is free, as will functions as a result of something previous, thus will is compelled to act, or not act which is just the result of thinking the thought to not act. :) There is just will, not a separate entity that possess it, as the entity and will are one in the same thing.

Everything we do is compelled by thought and you do not choose nor govern the process by which thought arises. Hence you do not think which thoughts you are going to think before you think them. This process happens very rapidly, and then we act on those thoughts and then look back and say "I did it" but you did not consciously do or control all the functions that took place to generate the thoughts produced, from which then you acted/spoke out.

If you respond to this reply it will be as the result of an urge, and if you do not respond it will also be as a result of an urge not to respond, no freewill involved. You may say "I am freely using my will to respond" to which I would say; "no will is that which does or does not react as the result of a previous urge/impulse/thought/desire/ which spontaneously arose as a result of some previous stimulus." We are not free, but compelled by previous stimulus.
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  #9  
Old 20-09-2016, 10:20 AM
William 辰 William 辰 is offline
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There is something to be said about every point of view. But choice stems from free will.
As I've alread said, you can choose which thoughts arise. That's what the Law of Attraction is all about. You choose your thoughts untill they start to come to you automatically, and then it will be easier to change reality.
You can not choose not to use free will, because choice is part of free will. If you take away free will, you take away choice with it.
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Old 20-09-2016, 12:24 PM
Within Silence Within Silence is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by William 辰
There is something to be said about every point of view. But choice stems from free will.
As I've alread said, you can choose which thoughts arise. That's what the Law of Attraction is all about. You choose your thoughts untill they start to come to you automatically, and then it will be easier to change reality.
You can not choose not to use free will, because choice is part of free will. If you take away free will, you take away choice with it.


The Argument Against Free Will from Sufficient Reason

1) Take some arbitrary event, E.

2) If E had no cause sufficient to bring it about, then it wouldn’t have happened.

3) But E did happen.

4) Therefore, E had a cause sufficient to bring it about.

5) Since E is arbitrary, we may safely conclude that all events have causes sufficient to bring them about.

6) It follows that all of our actions are caused by prior events.

7) It also follows that the prior events leading to our actions were caused by other prior events, and so on…

8) Therefore, everything we do is the result of causal chains extending backward in time long before we were born.

9) Therefore, everything we do is caused by forces over which we have no control

10) If our actions are caused by forces over which we have no control, we do not act freely.

11) Therefore, we never act freely.



Free Will and Neurology
The experiments of Jose Delgado:

Showed that you can cause movements of the body by stimulating specific parts of the brain. For example, a monkey could be caused blink, move its arms, or even to get up and walk around.

· It works on humans, too.
· The subject experiences the movements as though they were voluntary actions. Human subjects will even come up with reasons why they were doing it, despite the fact that the action was caused by an outside electrical stimulation of the brain.

In one subject, electrical stimulation of the brain produced “head turning and slow displacement of the body to either side with a well-oriented and apparently normal sequence, as if the patient were looking for something.” This was repeated six times over two days, confirming that the stimulation was actually producing the behavior. But the subject, who did not know about the electrical stimulation, considered the activity spontaneous and offered reasons for it. When asked “What are you doing?” he would reply “I am looking for my slippers,” “I heard a noise,” “I am restless,” or “I was looking under the bed.” (PP, p. 104)



The experiments of H. H. Kornhuber:

· Confirm that the characteristic brain activity responsible for bodily movements begins up to one-and-a-half seconds before the person is consciously aware of having made any decision to move. A technician watching an electoencephalograph can know that you are going to move your finger before you do.


What the experiments suggest is that free will is just an illusion borne of ignorance. We believe that we are in control of our actions because we are not aware of their true causes.
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