What I believe full enlightenment is

[Questions]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Yup. What he said. But to move forward toward a greater wholeness of self and humanity, there's no way to it but through it.

Likewise the fact of no permanent bliss or ever-pleasurable reward doesn't mean that the unexamined life is suddenly worth living. It's just that the examined life, whilst immensely precious, is quite a lot to chew on

However, that too explains why so many purposely choose to live in denial or to quest after permabliss*, even long after a taste of awakening.

And until we all accept that we're bound to move out of spiritual infancy, then the big stuff (getting along, working together, and moving forward, or just staying alive as a species) will continue to be very difficult and incremental, methinks.


(*The pleasure seeking obsession is separate from a simple appreciation of the sublime joy of being, which many may also just call bliss...and this too is experienced even whilst much of life and experience is clearly not (yet) right-aligned. The sublime joy of being coexists alongside all else we are and experience. It does not override our perception of what is misaligned, or of suffering. It simply likewise informs our being here now, just as the suffering does.)


Peace & blessings Dazza
7L

I find it funnier that there are those in denial of the possibility of permanent bliss. Chronic depressed people also lived a long time in that state and might even believe that that is their natural state so what makes you think yours is?

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by Questions[B

]I find it funnier that there are those in denial of the possibility of permanent bliss. [/b]Chronic depressed people also lived a long time in that state and might even believe that that is their natural state so what makes you think yours is?

In the Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Berakoth Folio 17a describes bliss with the following words:

"In the future world there is no eating nor drinking nor propagation nor business nor jealousy nor hatred nor competition, but the righteous sit with their crowns on their heads feasting on the brightness of the divine presence, as it says, And they beheld God, and did eat and drink".

I am not ready: I like to eat.

[running]

Originally Posted by God-Like

Something that I read yesterday that resonated with me on the subject..


The Calamity

Q: This change -- you call it a 'calamity'?

UG: You see, people usually imagine that so-called enlightenment, self-realization, God-realization or what you will (I don't like to use these words) is something ecstatic, that you will be permanently happy, in a blissful state all the time -- these are the images they have of those people. But when this kind of a thing happens to the individual, he realizes that really there is no basis for that kind of thing. So, from the point of view of the man who imagines that that is permanent happiness, permanent bliss, permanent this and permanent that, it is a calamity because he is expecting something whereas what happens is altogether unrelated to that. There's no relationship at all between the image you have of that, and what actually is the situation. So, from the point of view of the man who imagines that to be something permanent, this is a calamity -- it's in that sense I use it. That's why I very often tell people "If I could give you some glimpse of what this is all about, you wouldn't touch this with a barge pole, a ten foot pole." You would run away from this because this is not what you want. What you want does not exist, you see.

So, the next question is: Why did all these sages talk of this as "permanent bliss," "eternal life," this, that and the other? I'm not interested in that at all. But the image you have of that has absolutely no relationship whatsoever to the actual thing that I'm talking about, the natural state. So the question whether somebody else is enlightened or not doesn't interest me, because there is no such thing as enlightenment at all.




Krishnamurti

it takes an incredible amount of surrendering to become ok with what becomes permenant. since it is permenant. there is no reason for it. causeless. its a paradox. having nothing to do with the emotional body. it is not like happiness as it is experinced irrespective of what is. emotions or otherwise.

the difference between guru a and guru b is just semantics.

[running]

futhermore to be exact. it could be said that nobody becomes enlightened. people become open to what is beyond the mind and emotional body. those things can not be created. they are just there for those whom become open to such.

bliss is experienced in the body by the nervous system. that joy is the feminine aspect expressing herself. it can not be blocked or impeded by what is. the mind. or anything else. once it has become established to permanence. since it is always there it is simply the new normal. since there is nothing to compare it from something else. as it is always. unlike the mind and unlike the emotional body.

[Questions]

Originally Posted by running

futhermore to be exact. it could be said that nobody becomes enlightened. people become open to what is beyond the mind and emotional body. those things can not be created. they are just there for those whom become open to such.

bliss is experienced in the body by the nervous system. that joy is the feminine aspect expressing herself. it can not be blocked or impeded by what is. the mind. or anything else. once it has become established to permanence. since it is always there it is simply the new normal. since there is nothing to compare it from something else. as it is always. unlike the mind and unlike the emotional body.

Yes that is exactly how I sensed bliss it has a lot to do with surrender and it really feels like opening up to the state instead of mind created like other emotions.

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by running

it takes an incredible amount of surrendering to become ok with what becomes permenant. since it is permenant. there is no reason for it. causeless. its a paradox. having nothing to do with the emotional body. it is not like happiness as it is experinced irrespective of what is. emotions or otherwise.

the difference between guru a and guru b is just semantics.

Are you saying personally you are not emotional in any shape or form or are you speaking generally here?

Do you know anyone that is not swayed by their individuality and all that encompasses .. ?


x daz x

[running]

Originally Posted by God-Like

Are you saying personally you are not emotional in any shape or form or are you speaking generally here?

Do you know anyone that is not swayed by their individuality and all that encompasses .. ?


x daz x

its completely seperate from the emotional. body. bliss only happens directly from the nervous system. it is independent of everything else. so everything is as it was. EXCEPT joy in the body and mind always.

im not the only one. i have met others. there are gurus that offer transmissions of such. one in europe jane esmann. another in the states. David spero. tons of others if you searched the net. thats just off the top of my head.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Questions

I find it funnier that there are those in denial of the possibility of permanent bliss. Chronic depressed people also lived a long time in that state and might even believe that that is their natural state so what makes you think yours is?

Hello Questions. If you are speaking to me, I didn't say that we couldn't continually experience the sublime joy of being. I said that we could (and may and do), alongside everything else we are and experience.
Did you see what I wrote? JIC, let me put it here again:

(*The pleasure seeking obsession is separate from a simple appreciation of the sublime joy of being, which many may also just call bliss...and this too is experienced even whilst much of life and experience is clearly not (yet) right-aligned. The sublime joy of being coexists alongside all else we are and experience. It does not override our perception of what is misaligned, or of suffering. It simply likewise informs our being here now, just as the suffering does.)

IMO, the fallacy is expecting to only experience one aspect of reality, as if awakening removes you in some way from the physical realm and drugs you or numbs you to anything but the pleasure receptors -- like a disembodied brain in a tub with electrodes. In fact, awakening does the opposite, grounding you ever more deeply in your heart centre and in your lived experience. The sublime joy of being and all that we are and experience, including the suffering and the pleasure, coexist with and within us and all that is.

So is that funnier? Or less funny?

Peace & blessings
7L

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by running

its completely seperate from the emotional. body. bliss only happens directly from the nervous system. it is independent of everything else. so everything is as it was. EXCEPT joy in the body and mind always.

im not the only one. i have met others. there are gurus that offer transmissions of such. one in europe jane esmann. another in the states. David spero. tons of others if you searched the net. thats just off the top of my head.

I agree that bliss is not relating to emotional relations but engaging with life always it seems has it's ups and downs so to speak.

When you said on the forums the other week / month about a financial situation you helped someone with you had to relate to the issues / sufferings of that specific situation and what the consequences of not finding the money would be.

If a loved one was suffering you would automatically respond by trying to alleviate their sufferings, correct?

If you were always in a permanent state of bliss, then you would not worry for them, you would have no reference for suffering.

You obviously were worried in this instance and in my eyes you can't be blissfully worried lol .

If bliss is beyond the emotion then bliss is beyond the intellect, and peeps can't be discussing the inns and outs of bliss without being intellectually minded.

If this is the case a blissful chap would be mentally and emotionally redundant and not functioning in day to day life activity lol ..

This does actually lead me into my experience of bliss where there was no thinking, no feeling, no functioning..


x daz x

[Aknaton]

Interesting post as well as view of Enlightenment. And I see that you have identified the Tao with the Unmanifest in the lower Dantian.

I see two differences between this path and that of the Christians. In this Buddhist path, the mind and enters the heart and then into the lower Dantian where one enters nirvana. However, the Christian mystics aim to drop the mind into the heart and aim to merge with God within the heart and do not descend Into the Nothingness but let God take care of the rest. The former becomes a Buddha, the latter becomes like Christ.

And to include, even if a Christian has not managed to make their mind enter the heart, God can still enter the heart and take care of the rest.

One should know that Christians gain they're Salvation through the blood of Jesus and this is Grace. And then there is something that these ascetics tend to hide from the common population, and that is what goes on as regards this "Grace" that they speak of. Truly nothing comes for nothing.