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  #1001  
Old 14-12-2019, 12:57 AM
Gem Gem is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaelyn
To me, animals are naturally self centered, possessive, territorial, competitive and all of that. We are animals of the mammal class. But then somebody can view animal behavior, like fighting, killing for food or territory etc not a negative or violent thing I suppose. To me it is violent and negative, even though it is natural or the given nature of things. But to me, that is the nature of this physical world.

I see positive as harmony. No violence, no conflict. Working together as a whole for the whole, which is not what animals do. Even plants compete for land and will kill each other as they struggle to survive. Some will poison and kill animals that try to feed off them. Many insects are violent as well.

Can animals go against the self centered animal nature? How and what goes against it? This leads to philosophy, religion, beliefs. Coming up with theories about what we are besides just an animal doing what animals are made to do. Fight and struggle to get it's needs met and live in a hostile competitive environment as a self centered competitive being.



That could be the given, our animal nature, the putting the wood on the fire. Then you are saying there may be a way to rise above that in some way, saying you believe something exists that can end the putting of the wood on the fire.




There is no rising above in any enduring sense, like, in the future that'll happen, but if you stop and look to see what 'this' is like, nothing is added in that moment. Of course the teachers will add on to it, a special breathing, an energy work, because one needs to feel in volitional control, but when you 'just look' there's just the truth, which by definition is regardless of preference and choice.



You know the question 'what is this like?" has no answer. It isn't knowledge in that objective sense, but it is known in the immediacy of subjectivity - provided one pays attention. What I'm saying, therefore, is not an answer and one has to 'stop and look' to understand what I allude to. Since it's not special nor spiritually profound, people will see 'this' and then continue to look for 'something other than this'. You see then, no one can cease to add fuel per-se, but when you become conscious of the process of adding fuel, you are the one aware and not the one adding fuel, and if you are not adding it, no one is adding it, so it ceases to be added.
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  #1002  
Old 14-12-2019, 05:01 PM
Phaelyn Phaelyn is offline
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I'd say where there is a potential for rising above in a future sense is when we learn or understand something new. Then, we have changed, new knowledge or understanding has been added, and so what we are and do in the future changes or at least we have the potential for this to happen. It depends how deeply this new understanding has affected us and how deeply we make it a part of us.
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  #1003  
Old 14-12-2019, 05:26 PM
Phaelyn Phaelyn is offline
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The tools to rise above our animal drives seems to me to be awareness and understanding, empathy and compassion and love, which come from experience and multiple lives. The body offers up a lot of pleasures, like food, sex, and even things like harming others to feel powerful, dominating others, competing with others. The rush of adrenaline from watching or participating in violence to "win." The drive to be better than somebody else. To be noticed or important.

All of these things derive from our animal nature. The human world is actually a lot more animalistic and violent than many realize because we have created police, laws, and prisons to deal with the most animalistic among us. Right now, over 10 million humans have been removed from the world at large and put in prisons. Imagine if all those people were roaming free to do as they wanted, take what they wanted, not based on ethics or morality, or rules and laws, but based only on the animal code that the strongest most aggressive and powerful animal takes whatever they want from weaker animals. But then even with laws and prisons, violence continues to happen non-stop somewhere.
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  #1004  
Old 14-12-2019, 05:27 PM
enaid enaid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaelyn
I'd say where there is a potential for rising above in a future sense is when we learn or understand something new. Then, we have changed, new knowledge or understanding has been added, and so what we are and do in the future changes or at least we have the potential for this to happen. It depends how deeply this new understanding has affected us and how deeply we make it a part of us.

This can’t be emphasized enough. These are turning points where the new knowledge is absorbed and changes us forever. How I long for these moments !
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  #1005  
Old 14-12-2019, 07:19 PM
sky sky is offline
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Originally Posted by enaid
This can’t be emphasized enough. These are turning points where the new knowledge is absorbed and changes us forever. How I long for these moments !



As nothing is permanent, change always happens, your moments will come.
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  #1006  
Old 15-12-2019, 03:52 AM
Gem Gem is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaelyn
I'd say where there is a potential for rising above in a future sense is when we learn or understand something new. Then, we have changed, new knowledge or understanding has been added, and so what we are and do in the future changes or at least we have the potential for this to happen. It depends how deeply this new understanding has affected us and how deeply we make it a part of us.




It's a good point and I just want to discern between the knowledge acquired and the sort od knowing that is a realisation, because a person can learn a lot of knowledge without undergoing any fundamental transformation as a person, whereas realising things is inherently transformative.



I've made a categorical distinction for the sake of exploration, but according to Buddhist philosophy they aren't exactly separate. Buddhist ontology has three aspects to knowing: The truth of the words (dhamma teachings); The intellectual understanding of them and; the insight.


The truth of the words is based on the assumption that the words are those of the enlightened one, so we accept them as true based on the authority of the speaker.


The intellectual understanding is when we think it through and see that it makes sense, adds up, seems reasonable, is consistent.


The insight is when we realise things for ourselves.


All three together make up Buddhist 'knowledge'.
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  #1007  
Old 15-12-2019, 04:33 AM
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Even so, the whole thing is a circle and the end is at the beginning. We often like to think of linear progress as leaving behind beginner things and advancing to expert things, but where does meditation really begin?

Morality is the cornerstone, and where a foundation is laid solid a stable structure may be supported. However, in meditation practice we lay a foundation first with the sila vows, but morality is integral to sentience itself and we always return to reinforce the foundation.

Meditation as insight meditation, mindfulness, vipassana or a rose by any other name is for the sake of insight under the premise that "the truth will set you free". As J Krishnamurti puts it, "it is the the truth that liberates; not your efforts to be free".

This 'truth' pertains to wisdom rather than knowledge, and I think this distinction was portrayed well in the movie "The Peaceful Warrior". The dialogue follows:

Socrates: Knowledge is not the same as wisdom.
Dan: Yeah? What's the difference?
Socrates: You know how to clean a windshield, right?
Dan: Yeah.
Socrates: Wisdom is doing it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwlL7L7OoEc


Point being, wisdom comes with a deeper sense of morality.
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