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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > General Beliefs

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  #1  
Old 15-04-2018, 11:06 AM
weareunity weareunity is offline
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dishonesty and deception

Hello all. Some thoughts on dishonesty and deception.

We may be tempted to think that dishonesty and deception can be used to gain advantage.--and so it may seem. But at what personal cost, with what consequences?

With all lying, all deception, there is the construction of a false narrative. It is my belief that our inner spark--by whatever name--and because it is of the nature of absolute reality,-- becomes unavailable to us, locked out of the false reality which we create by lying and deceitfulness, and at the moment when we most need connection with that inner spark--as we each most certainly will--we shall find ourselves alone, separate and empty. No one left to blame, nothing at which to point the crooked finger. Judged finally by our own voice.

petex

Last edited by weareunity : 15-04-2018 at 12:46 PM.
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  #2  
Old 18-04-2018, 02:16 AM
linen53 linen53 is offline
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It's all part of the process. We don't start out knowing anything that is right. We come here, incarnate, live, make tons of mistakes, and learn. This takes innumerable lifetimes.

The dishonesty and deception is somewhere in the middle, and takes anywhere from one to 100 lifetimes to learn. A drop in the bucket of our learning curve.
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  #3  
Old 18-04-2018, 04:48 PM
Tortoise Walks Tortoise Walks is offline
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Lying and deception are often coping mechanisms to shift and delay “reality” into something more acceptable and palatable for self, loved ones, and society. Some folks who lie and decieve are just as convincing to themselves as to others. Or they know that its a lie but so badly want that to be the truth as life would be “easier” and they can be the person they want to be rather than who seems to actually show up. Which story would you want to believe?

At root there is rejecting some aspect of ourselves and who we are and lying, decieving, omitting becomes a means to manipulate control over our lives and how we are viewed. We can’t share who we are because we may not know or accept ourselves well enough yet to share or others in our lives may have expectations about who we are and are not very open to any change. Or we think we know best for another... lying and deceiving to “protect” the fragile “reality” (er fantasy) of another and ourselves.

Often it is the liar and deciever who doesn’t get to be known and loved for who they are until they finally open up to themselves and others... due the deficit of fault and blame built up that can be quite daunting to come out from under because of the hurt and judgement from loved ones affected by the manipulation of reality and the loss of control of the liar who now has to confront the “unacceptable” and allow the rejected/hidden aspects of self to be seen and potentially rejected and walked away from.

It can be quite lovely to let it all go... as it is terrifying to do so...
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  #4  
Old 19-04-2018, 09:56 AM
weareunity weareunity is offline
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Hello linen53. I appreciate your offering of your perspective re lessons and lifetimes. Perhaps it is too simple a question--In the perspective you have offered, what are the principal factors which determine the number of lifetimes required to learn such lessons?. petex
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  #5  
Old 19-04-2018, 10:22 AM
weareunity weareunity is offline
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Hello Tortoise Walks. (I like the username--if I may say)

You rightly point out that there are a number of reasons which may lead to us being dishonest. I too am much interested in understanding why we behave as we do.

Perhaps it is fair to say that while some of the reasons are less calculated than others,--being perhaps responses of the nature which you describe in your post,--some however begin as calculated methodology in order to gain advantage over others, advantage gained by disadvantaging others by a variety of dishonest and deceptive methods.

In the opening post I have sought to indicate this "distinction" and think about what consequences choosing to use calculated dishonesty and deception in order to gain advantage will have upon those who choose to do so.

petex
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  #6  
Old 19-04-2018, 02:27 PM
linen53 linen53 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weareunity
Hello linen53. I appreciate your offering of your perspective re lessons and lifetimes. Perhaps it is too simple a question--In the perspective you have offered, what are the principal factors which determine the number of lifetimes required to learn such lessons?. petex

It's different for every person. Some more, some less.

But we aren't talking a timetable here. We have all the time in the world to learn every lesson until we get an A+ on it. Not because it's required, but because has been our goal in our blueprint for a particular incarnation. Whatever the lesson, that's what we came here to learn.

I had a reading from a medium once. This is what he had to say about how old my soul is: This soul began with the Earth as a member of the brown races of the Pacific.....The genesis for this soul was, in our reckoning, more than 12,000 years ago.

I have an acquaintance. He is currently in the hospital with kidney failure. He's in his 50's. But he has been a chronic alcoholic his entire adult life. We're not talking 5-7 p.m. drinking. We are talking every waking moment that he is not at work, drinking (and sometimes I suspected he was drinking on the job).

Some may say, "Tsk, tsk, what a shame." But I see it as he came here to learn the lesson of dependence on a substance. It may take him just this lifetime to have learned this lesson or this could have been lesson 5, or 10 or 20. But eventually he will have learned everything he wants to learn about it.

Does it seem cruel? Well, he is choosing to learn this lesson. See, when you are on the other side, you see the "Big Picture." We don't have our tiny, limited brains we have here as I write this and you read this. He has knowledge of every single lifetime he has ever lived. And he has an idea of where he wants to go.

Why all the pain? Because we don't learn our lessons in a Utopia. We learn them when our hearts are broken, when we have lost everything, when we have been abandoned by those around us, when we are alone and completely beaten. That's when those tiny thoughts of change begin. That's when the understanding of why that path we chose wasn't a good one and we veer off to another path.

Pain is the only way it works. Those who are running this show love us very much. It makes them sad beyond words that we have to learn this way. But they help us learn our lessons. They've been through it too so they understand from the inside out.
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  #7  
Old 19-04-2018, 02:30 PM
linen53 linen53 is offline
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I have a suggested reading. The Instruction, by Ainslie MacLeod. It explains the age of the soul and and what our focus is in each "age".

We are not all the same soul age. New souls are being created/born all the time.
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  #8  
Old 19-04-2018, 03:20 PM
lemex lemex is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weareunity
Perhaps it is too simple a question--In the perspective you have offered, what are the principal factors which determine the number of lifetimes required to learn such lessons?. petex


Is it the question or feeling that does not feel simple. Like you I did like the feeling of the question but it is not hard to see a time when the person will not lie or be deceitful. What is being put forth in the statement of in the end it doesn't matter is very difficult to accept. One is not there but in the middle of it. The past? Here are 2 principles, one karma and the other (concept of) now.
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  #9  
Old 20-04-2018, 03:45 PM
blackraven blackraven is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weareunity
Hello all. Some thoughts on dishonesty and deception.

We may be tempted to think that dishonesty and deception can be used to gain advantage.--and so it may seem. But at what personal cost, with what consequences?

With all lying, all deception, there is the construction of a false narrative. It is my belief that our inner spark--by whatever name--and because it is of the nature of absolute reality,-- becomes unavailable to us, locked out of the false reality which we create by lying and deceitfulness, and at the moment when we most need connection with that inner spark--as we each most certainly will--we shall find ourselves alone, separate and empty. No one left to blame, nothing at which to point the crooked finger. Judged finally by our own voice.

petex

weareunity - I believe that lies eventually have a way of coming out and that it's far better to not lie to begin with than to be caught in a lie later on down the road. People have there reasons for lying and I believe most that make a habit of lying also justify it. Others who aren't even aware that they are lying on a continuous basis tend to be labeled pathological.

One question concerning lies I often ponder is secrets and whether they are lies when they are not revealed and exposed. I would be interested in your thoughts on that. My take on secrets and private information is that an individual has the right to protect his/her privacy. However, just because those secrets or private information isn't exposed, perhaps for fear of judgment, that doesn't constitute a lie. A lie to me is when two people are having an open dialogue with each contributing to the exchange and someone during the dialogue tells something that is not truthful. Deceitfulness is a little trickier because it by nature is tricky in that one tries to trick the other listener into being guided towards a conclusion that benefits the deceiver's agenda.
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  #10  
Old 21-04-2018, 04:52 PM
weareunity weareunity is offline
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Angel1

Hello all. Thanks linen53 for the elaboration on your belief which I know is not only personal to you but to many others also, and thanks too for the reading suggestion.
Hello blackraven. Your observation and thoughts expressed in your opening paragraph make a lot of sense to me as a plodding ponderer.
Pondering further with regard to the remainder of your post, and in response to your wondering what my thoughts are on the subject of secrets.
If I may return and expand a little on thoughts expressed in the opening post.

It seems to me, though it may not be the case, that the universe functions in truthfulness with reality being a constant yet moving wave crest carried forward by cause and consequence which themselves become one another and behave in a manner which is wholly predictable with sufficient understanding. We understand some part of this manner as what we call scientific law.
If we choose to believe that we too are indivisible inseparable components of this constant process of cause and consequence, then it also seems to me that in order for that belief to be or become a personal reality our manner must need to be truthful.--for else, as expressed in the opening post, we are separated.
The question then is a question which is always present--how do we discern what is true? How do we evaluate, how do we judge? And if able to judge, in what manner shall we apply that judgement? This perhaps leads us to the question you ask concerning secrets, withheld information. And what about beliefs? Are they truths or answers to need? Should we distinguish between untruths generated by psychological need, and untruths generated in order to achieve personal advantage in the pursuit of personal ambition? And is such ambition itself a response to psychological need? So many questions requiring so much understanding, and for what purpose? Perhaps these are the great questions of the how and why of being. Perhaps the answers also have something to do with the how and why of being--of being of the whole and behaving as such.

petex
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