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  #291  
Old 02-03-2017, 05:01 PM
Ground Ground is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by naturesflow
Yes, I can now see how this is and can be. My question about this to you. How would one determine themselves coming from the place of timelessly empty knowing spontaneously present awareness? I mean if you are noticing yourself as all this, what would you be noticing in yourself in the relating side of this awareness?
Can't say. you are asking for the subject but there is neither object nor subject.

Let me refer you to a quote where Longchen Rabjam mentions one implication of openness:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Longchen Rabjam, The Precious Treasury of The Way of Abiding, Padma Publishing 1998

Concerning the facets of the nature of phenomena, one implication
that can be discerned
is that they constitute self-knowing timeless awareness as openness,
empty yet lucid.
Not constrained by being perceived as a subject, beyond being
perceived as an object,
and without any point of reference, wide-open clarity is unrestricted.
...
... all recollection has been
exhausted -
is expansive openness like space, neither meditation
nor nonmeditation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by naturesflow
Ok that is much clearer now. So in the question I asked above I suppose the awareness is always present, but the feeling and emotions form a veil over what just is "aware".. How does one know the difference in themselves if they are coming from clarity or coming through the veil clouding and blurring. Or doesn't it matter? I liken this to the awareness of oneself in process for example. If you are aware of yourself no longer needing to process emotions but rather consciously aware of yourself beyond them, I imagine this balance of being, would give a more clear picture of oneself as all this relating..
There is no sentiment of self or other. So the thought 'difference' or a thought of uncertainty 'is it this?' will not occur in the sphere of awareness. In case of feeling and/or emotions it is always the sphere or ordinary consciousness and there is always a sentiment of 'oneself'.


What I am talking here about is what one is directly introduced to and what one is stabilizing after having been directly introduced to it. As mentioned in a posting further above direct introduction may be induced by any phenomenon and/or by receiving appropriate information.
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  #292  
Old 02-03-2017, 08:50 PM
naturesflow naturesflow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ground
Can't say. you are asking for the subject but there is neither object nor subject.

Let me refer you to a quote where Longchen Rabjam mentions one implication of openness:


The quote is perfect really, speaks to me of how this is sensed to be in myself.




Quote:
There is no sentiment of self or other. So the thought 'difference' or a thought of uncertainty 'is it this?' will not occur in the sphere of awareness. In case of feeling and/or emotions it is always the sphere or ordinary consciousness and there is always a sentiment of 'oneself'.

Ok yes that makes sense. It is without thought and feelings/emotion, more clarity and spaciousness, which I interpret in my own way as openness/clarity of being and just aware... It is kind of nothing but complete, open, boundless. Nothing in it at all just awareness.

Quote:
What I am talking here about is what one is directly introduced to and what one is stabilizing after having been directly introduced to it. As mentioned in a posting further above direct introduction may be induced by any phenomenon and/or by receiving appropriate information.

Yes I gathered this. Within human process when one is directly introduced, most people go through these processors to build some kind of stabilized point after the fact naturally, a natural flow on from life happenings. Of course not everyone lands in the open/spaciousness as mentioned in the quote in that processing, some may in fact settle in on old patterns and fuel yet to be ignited and still holds in and down the connection or awareness of ones own ground of being yes?

But certainly direct introduction can manage to be stabilized directly in that moment of its introduction when one is not attached to emotions/feelings where by, direct awareness is instant..I am beginning to notice myself in this zone more often of late...Again to experience this, it would come back to how balanced your ground of being is in relation to your mind/emotions yes? And what is directly introduced will signal its own awareness of itself aware in that moment.
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  #293  
Old 03-03-2017, 07:01 AM
Ground Ground is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by naturesflow
Yes I gathered this. Within human process when one is directly introduced, most people go through these processors to build some kind of stabilized point after the fact naturally, a natural flow on from life happenings. Of course not everyone lands in the open/spaciousness as mentioned in the quote in that processing, some may in fact settle in on old patterns and fuel yet to be ignited and still holds in and down the connection or awareness of ones own ground of being yes?
Actually direct introduction by any phenomenon happening by chance is more likely and happens more often than it is likely and easy afterwards to be and remain without doubt and be and remain certain that 'this is it, nothing else.' and to continue in awareness. The conditionings of ordinary mind are very strong and merely having been introduced once cannot overcome these conditionings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by naturesflow
But certainly direct introduction can manage to be stabilized directly in that moment of its introduction when one is not attached to emotions/feelings where by, direct awareness is instant..I am beginning to notice myself in this zone more often of late...Again to experience this, it would come back to how balanced your ground of being is in relation to your mind/emotions yes? And what is directly introduced will signal its own awareness of itself aware in that moment.
The point is there is movement and will always be movement because of the spontaneous present nature of awareness as the ground of being and its dynamic manifestations. Awareness is not that stillness and calm abiding that may occur in meditations and that fades away after the meditation session has been completed. Awareness also is movement of body, speech and mind. So when having been directly introduced and when stabilizing this to which has been directly introduced it 'has to be' integrated with its own spontaneously present dynamics, integrated with all kinds of movements of body, speech and mind. But being immersed in authentic awareness there is spontaneous integration with all movements of body, speech and mind without effort, there can't be any dynamics which would not be that awareness.

What refers to 'thought patters' in the following quote is valid for 'emotional patterns' too. The point here is that these patterns are not to be rejected as 'Oh this is ordinary mind, I do not want to have this.' but when immersed in authentic awareness these patterns appear as what they are: the dynamics of awareness itself, the dynamic energy of the ground of being or 'the ornament of basic space'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Longchen Rabjam, A Treasure Trove of Scriptural Transmission, Padma Publishing 2001

All-consuming thought patterns cannot be abandonned by being
renounced, for they are the dynamic energy of awareness.
Their true nature is such that there are no distinctions, nothing
to differentiate or exclude,
so that nature is not ensured by achievement, but arises as
basic space.
Without rejecting samsara, you perceive it to be naturally
occuring timeless awareness
through the pure yoga of the dynamic energy of the vast
expanse of being.
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  #294  
Old 21-03-2017, 01:37 PM
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In chapter 12 of his Treasure Trove of Scriptural Transmission Longchen Rabjam deals with the immediate results of the decisive experience (chapter 9) in the context of having been directly introduced to timeless awareness.
Chapter 10 is about stabilization of this experience and is titled Natural Meditative Stability.
Although chapter 12 deals with the immediate results it also cautions the reader against falling back into habits of ordinary mind:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Longchen Rabjam, A Treasure Trove of Scriptural Transmission, Padma Publishing 2001


In brief, all phenomena that are appearances or possibilities,
as well as what is neither an appearance nor a possibility and is beyond
ordinary phenomena--
all these are already timelessly free in basic space,
so there is no need now for anyone to make an effort to free them anew.


Even though you might make an effort to do this, it would be pointless,
so don't! Don't! Do not strive or try to achieve!
Don't look! Don't look! Do not look at the concepts in your mind!
Don't meditate! Don't meditate! Do not meditate on the phenomena of your
ordinary consciousness.
Don't analyze! Don't analyze! Do not analyze sense objects and
ordinary mind!
Don't try to achieve! Don't try to achieve! Do not try to achieve results
out of hope and fear!
Don't reject! Don't reject! Do not reject afflictive emotions and karma!
Don't accept! Don't accept! Do not accept anything as true!
Don't bind! Don't bind! Do not bind your mindstream!

So what is striking here is the caution against meditation considering the fact that chapter 10 is titled Natural Meditative Stability and one may ask oneself "What is the difference between 'meditation' that one should avoid and 'natural meditative stability' that is the mode of stabilizing the decisive experience in the context of direct introduction?"

To stress the difference between 'meditation' and 'natural meditative stability' the latter often is called 'non-meditation' but actually from a linguistic perspective the term 'non-meditation' also covers every imaginable weird activity that is not rightly called 'meditation'. So the term 'non-meditation' is of no help here and to find out what 'natural meditative stability' is and why it is different from 'meditation' one has to consult the commentary in chapter 10.
(to be continued)
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  #295  
Old 21-03-2017, 08:16 PM
jonesboy jonesboy is offline
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From pg 220-224. Originally Posted by Longchen Rabjam, A Treasure Trove of Scriptural Transmission, Padma Publishing 2001

Quote:
Briefly, all meditation techniques
are subsumed under two headings, based on whether or not their frame
of reference involves a support. Techniques that involve a support consist
of focusing one's mind without distraction on an appropriate object
perceived outwardly-a form (such as the image of a deity, a symbolic
implement, a twig, or a pebble), a sound, an odor, a taste, or a tactile sensation. Techniques that involve no outer support are the province of
mind. Some involve mental images and are held to elicit nonconceptual
states of awareness through focus on specific visualizations entailing the
subtle channels, subtle energies, and bindu. Others involve focusing on
syllables, spheres of light, or chakras in the subtle channels, visualizations
of fire in the practice of chandali, and so forth.

To summarize, everyone holds that "meditation" refers to some
state with a single reference point, positing that it is essentially a state of
mind at rest, that its purpose lies in some hoped-for goal that can be
reached through stabilization, and that its function is to arrest dualistic
perception. The Reverberation of Sound states:
"Meditation" is mind at rest,
cutting through mental stirring, whether directed outwardly
or inwardly;
it is the cessation of dualistic perception.
Subtle channels, subtle energies, and bindu,
physical postures, visualizations, and emptiness these
are held to be "meditation."

True meditative stability is a particular feature of the great perfection
approach.

....Once you have been directly Introduced to awareness, you abide in that naturally settled meditative
stability, so that even though you do not deliberately cultivate meditative experiences of bliss, lucidity, and nonconceptual awareness, they
arise naturally. This is similar to the fact that meditative stability, being
present as a natural attribute of awareness, arises naturally in the intermediate state after death.

Once you forge the spiritual path using ordinary mind, it is in the
very nature of the process that you either have the experience of meditating
when you strive or lose it when you do not. But as soon as you
forge the path using awareness-timeless awareness- [Io5b] you abide
in the ongoing flow of naturally settled meditative stability, so that you
abide at all times in that state in which enlightened qualities come about
as a matter of course and there is no possibility of its being lost.

In brief, meditation with ordinary mind, which involves some frame
of reference, is anchored in dualistic perception, while awarenessnaturally
settled meditative stability-is the ongoing and naturally settled
state that is the true nature of phenomena. And so there is a difference
between achieving those worldly states of ordinary mind that lead to the higher realms (and perpetuate samsara) and abiding in your own
natural state within the enlightened intent of buddhahood (which actually
connects you with the liberation of nirvana).
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  #296  
Old 21-03-2017, 08:29 PM
Ground Ground is offline
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To continue this posting

What then is 'natural meditative stability'?

The answer is given in chapter 10:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Longchen Rabjam, A Treasure Trove of Scriptural Transmission, Padma Publishing 2001

The decisive experience that you come to [ann.: through direct introduction] - the way of abiding as awareness - is itself shown to be implemented through naturally settled meditative stability.

That means that that to which one is introduced in direct introduction is naturally settled meditative stability.

Why is this so?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Longchen Rabjam, A Treasure Trove of Scriptural Transmission, Padma Publishing 2001

True meditative stability is a particular feature of the great perfection approach. Just as heat is present as a natural attribute the moment there is fire, and wetness is naturally present in water, naturally settled meditative stability is present in awareness. Once you have been directly introduced to awareness, you abide in that naturally settled meditative stability, so that even though you do not deliberately cultivate meditative experiences of bliss, lucidity, and nonconeptual awareness, they arise naturally.

Therefore natural meditative stability and timeless awareness are two aspects of the ground of being.


And what is the differences between awareness or natural meditative stability on the one hand and meditation on the other hand?
Meditation is based on ordinary mind not on awareness:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Longchen Rabjam, A Treasure Trove of Scriptural Transmission, Padma Publishing 2001

Once you forge the spiritual path using ordinary mind, it is in the very nature of the process that you either have the experience of meditating when you strive or lose it when you do not. But as soon as you forge the path using awareness - timeless awareness - you abide in the ongoing flow of naturally settled meditative stability, so that you abide at all times in that state ...

Although the difference between natural meditative stability/awareness and meditation/ordinary mind is vast and very important there are similarities which may entail that one who has not been successfully directly introduced confuses meditation/ordinary mind with natural meditative stability/awareness. Therefore Longchen Rabjam explicitly explains some aspects of the difference:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Longchen Rabjam, A Treasure Trove of Scriptural Transmission, Padma Publishing 2001

There is a similarity between the way a great meditator achieves a nonconceptual state of ordinary mind and the way a yogin recognizes awareness in all its nakedness to be nonconceptual. But while there is a similarity in that both are nonconceptual states, there is a difference in that the nonconceptual state of ordinary mind is lost if physical posture and other factors are let go, for awareness has not been elicited in all its nakedness. Nonconceptual awareness has nothing to do with such factors, and therein lies a vast difference.


Forging the path with ordinary mind entails using antidots to refine away concepts, so that these incidental concepts seem to vanish without a trace, whereas in experiencing awareness one is unfettered by concepts. These two situations are similar in that ordinary recollection and thinking vanish into a state in which there is no fixation. But those who follow the former approach do not cut through the very root of the problem, and so conceptual reification and fixation can arise at random and one might think to oneself, "Being unborn, these arise continously." In the latter approach, one cuts through that root, so there is nowhere and no way for them to arise. Rather, the continous inner glow that is the dynamic energy of responsiveness becomes fully evident, manifesting reflexively like images in a mirror. There is a vast diffence here, since one perceives what arises outwardly from responsiveness to be like rays shining from the sun.


Furthermore, both the state of ordinary mind resting naturally and innate abiding of awareness resting naturally have a vivid quality. These states are similar insofar as they are lucid yet nonconceptual, but the aspect of ordinary mind remains anchored in dualistic perception, so that any quality of abiding entails an element of fixation. There is a vast difference here, in that in the latter case there is no interruption of awareness, which is unobstructed.


In addition, sense objects manifest within the limpidity of awareness, so that there is a continuous aspect of clarity, and thought processes arise as the ordinary mind's response to external sense objects. These two situations are similar, for in both there is conscious perception of sense objects. but awareness does not focus on external objects, for even though they manifest to it, it is unencumbered by them, so the root of ordinary mind has been cut through. The focus of ordinary mind shifts outward in response to sense objects, so the root has not been cut through and ordinary thinking takes place. Therein lies the difference.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Longchen Rabjam, A Treasure Trove of Scriptural Transmission, Padma Publishing 2001

In brief, meditation with ordinary mind, which involves some frame of reference, is anchored in dualistic perception, while awareness - naturally settled meditative stability - is the ongoing and naturally settled state that is the true nature of phenomena.
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  #297  
Old 22-03-2017, 06:40 AM
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What then is the role of the four methods of resting, the four Chog Zhags, elaborated in chapter 10, since meditation is not the province of Dzogchen?
It is simply to elicit the decisive experience already known from direct introduction. And it can be elicited (again) only if direct introduction has been successful. Otherwise the four methods are of no use and trying to apply them will only result in ordinary mind's activities.

So the four methods of resting are not to be confused with ordinary mind's meditation sessions.

What then is the purpose of the four methods?

Even if direct introduction has been successful it may happen that during everyday life (work, meetings, debates, family etc.) and its activities one slips back into ordinary mind due to ingrained habituations and one becomes aware 'This isn't it'. If one then interrupts the continuation of ordinary mind through applying Resting imperturbably like an ocean, Resting imperturbably in awareness and Resting in the immediate perception of sensory appearance for a matter of seconds only one immediately slips out of ordinary mind again and the result is resting imperturbably like a mountain.
Consequently there is no formal meditation session involved. Meditation sessions are the province of ordinary mind but not the province of awareness.

Applying these methods repeatedly when necessary in the phase after direct introduction has been successful stabilization of resting in awareness occurs naturally and slipping back into ordinary mind will very soon become a rare event and then not happen again and ever-present timeless awareness will manifest in and as all phenomena continuously.
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