Removing or not needing Chakras?

[Melahin]

Originally Posted by Carnate

There is a right and wrong here, but we need to be careful when we start thinking 'you are wrong'

Instead of making insinuations could you not just tell us what you believe to be right on this subject, and let us take it from there? because maybe it is not about right or wrong, but whether or not our belief system serves us or not. If it doesn't serve you it is not that it is universally wrong, it is just that it is not a practical approach pursuing it if it does not bring you to where you desire to go. So maybe it is just that there are many realities, and some serve you greatly, while others serve others greatly. Now you hear an amazing story about this system of belief that has made this person feel so blissful, and you recognize that you want that also... but instead of recognizing that it is the feeling you desire and not the system, you start doing this highly individual system that serves only its master, not grasping why it is so difficult for you to do exactly the same. So instead of realizing that it is because the system is not a match to your desire, you start to believe something is wrong, when in reality nothing is wrong at all, you have just simply walked in a different direction than you intended to, and all you actually have to do is feel your way back to yourself, the self that is the epitome of the feeling you desire to feel.

So maybe it does not serve us to talk about chakras as this all encompassing universal system, when it shows to be highly subjective when you start to dig into it. There is not one way it is described, there are a multitude of diverse perceptions of it. Yet at the center there is wisdom, and it is where the wisdom leads us we seek... not the system that others have used to find it.

[Carnate]

Originally Posted by Melahin

Instead of making insinuations could you not just tell us what you believe to be right on this subject, and let us take it from there?

I've got a number of posts in this thread. I'm sure the people who have been following it are aware of my stance. It'll be clearer for you in this post, but you're welcome to read my previous comments as well.

Originally Posted by Melahin

... maybe it is not about right or wrong, but whether or not our belief system serves us or not. If it doesn't serve you it is not that it is universally wrong, it is just that it is not a practical approach pursuing it if it does not bring you to where you desire to go. So maybe it is just that there are many realities, and some serve you greatly, while others serve others greatly.

I'm of two minds on how to respond to this.. and I think explaining both will help give you a better idea of why this debate is so 'heated'.

Firstly, due to the nature of the subtle realms, most people aren't as attuned to them as a select few of us (inclusive of most people in this forum). As such, ideas and knowledge about the subtle realms is only subjective because it's not truly tangible in the general sense. A lot of people like the idea of being spiritual, and dispense unfounded 'wisdom' which leads people astray. A great many people search for answers in forums and websites where the information is being offered by people who have minimal real experience or true knowledge of the subtle realms. This leads to differing ideas and conclusions about how things operate, and people start to think that some things are subjective...

However, a belief in how the system works can suffice when true knowledge is not available. In this respect, there is often little harm in people believing one thing that technically works for them, when it's not really how it works. I'll use the flat earth concept as a reference here.. there's little real difference in how we function in our day to day lives whether we believe the earth is flat or spherical. With this reference in mind, we can see spiritual development as a progression.. it's ok for people to believe the earth is flat until such a point as they want to fly from point A to B, where they will learn that the spherical nature of the Earth has a real impact on navigation. They gain a new perspective and evolve from that knowledge. As such, it's safe to let people believe the Earth is flat and let them continue their life journey without correcting them. The problem will sort itself out in its own way.

The second way I can respond is to clarify again that there is a right and wrong way in which the subtle realms operate. This topic is such that the right and wrong of it matters; in that there is a risk to people who take on the belief that closing down the chakras is beneficial. I can hear an amazing story about someone's belief system that made them 'feel so blissful', but I'm knowledgeable enough to recognise the dangers involved. You're suggesting that I (and perhaps other people) support them in continuing this potentially disastrous behaviour, simply because their belief set may be 'right' for them at this stage in their development. There are numerous cases of religious groups performing all manner of negative acts on themselves and other people, because they believe it's the right thing to do. I could give details and links here, but I don't think these things belong in this forum. But the short answer here is, those of us who have a greater understanding of chakras cannot let this topic go uncontested. We're here to help people, and to do that, we need to be involved in preventing/reducing harm.

Originally Posted by Melahin

So maybe it does not serve us to talk about chakras as this all encompassing universal system, when it shows to be highly subjective when you start to dig into it. There is not one way it is described, there are a multitude of diverse perceptions of it. Yet at the center there is wisdom, and it is where the wisdom leads us we seek... not the system that others have used to find it.

Chakras are a universal system. They are only subjective because the way they have been described has varied to suit the needs of the people, but the way they operate, how they function and the purpose they serve remains constant. I can accept that people will see chakras differently, but again, they interpret the energy differently depending on which senses they make use of, and whether it is actually the chakras they are seeing rather than the energy flowing through them.

I'll also expand on this by saying that 'they are described differently' isn't a reliable reason to believe how they operate is subjective. I do agree with your overarching statement; that there is wisdom that can lead us in the right path. I'm mostly concerned for people that take on board a detrimental belief set that appeals to them in some way, partly due to it's 'subjective' nature, rather than that which is closer to the truth of the matter.

[dryad]

There is actually some middle ground here that I don't think people have considered. The chakras are a non physical system. In my experience they are not as reliant or as closely tied to the physical as people think. They can actually be detached from the physical and continue to operate as part of your system. Perhaps this is what happens when people think they have removed them. They are not where they used to be so the person thinks they no longer exist when in fact they're just free floating somewhere else and continue to fulfill the purpose they are designed for. Just another perspective to consider.

[Melahin]

@carnate interesting.

You still have to wonder how physical anything truly is, right? And if our bodies aren't just this way because that is how we expect them to be, and if you could firm up another belief on this subject, then the truth of the matter would be completely different. But I get that from where you are, that you (or any of us) can't grasp something we have not experienced, yet without believing in its possibility then there is no way that we can experience it. I never believed in the universality of chakras, and in all my playing around with them I have not found anything that suggest they are. I more found that they bended to the will of my mind if I liked. So when I felt like removing them I did not second guess it, and I have found no good reason to reinstate a belief that I find limiting. Now I wonder if this goes as well with the so called physical body, because lets be honest there are stories that suggest so... the same way there are stories that suggest the chakras are not as necessary as some wants us to believe.

It reminds me of talking of god, yet there are evidence of people talking about god, I am yet to find any suggestion there is anything real about this god other than their belief in it. And here again my stance is that the only question you should ask is not whether god is real or not, but whether or not the belief in god serves you. So maybe chakras are universal to you as and integrated part of your universe? And just maybe your universe is not like mine, and mine not like anyone you have ever encountered before? Just maybe there is more to the story than what you have read this far?

[Carnate]

Nice words Melahin.

I agree that the physical is really an 'illusion'.. it's a form of matter (and the term also applies to 'matter' in the subtle realms) that stems from the astral realm. It's the foam on your beer, but not the actual beer... By this, I mean that anything that happens in the physical is present in the astral realm in a 'truer' sense. In this way, making changes to your astral body will generate changes to your physical body. This is why many forms of healing are effective.

This is another way of saying 'the physical responds to manipulations in the subtle realms'. Additionally, your various bodies respond very well to instruction.. whether conscious or subconscious. If you tell your physical/astral body to behave in a specific way, it attempts to do so, to the best of its ability. In a similar way, your chakras will respond to your direction.. however, there are some things that they cannot do. If you tell them to turn off or remove themselves, they'll attempt to do so but be unable to comply. The result will be something that feels like success, because that's what you want, but they will continue to function as necessary for survival, potentially in a manner similar to what Dryad explained.

I think, in a lot of ways, we have similar views about our reality. And both understand that any 'truth' we hold at the moment is essentially transient. It remains valid until such a time as our awareness expands to allow a greater understanding of the world. However, at the moment, I see 'remove chakras' as having a negative effect on anyone/everyone. I consider myself to be far more awareness/knowledgeable of the subtle realms than the vast majority of people.. so I can't see this stance changing any time soon. I've also yet to see any real or valid details that support the idea of removing chakras; the people that vouch for it are the 'everyday' psychics following advice from other 'everyday' psychics. I don't mean any disrespect in saying this.. what I'm looking for are people that promote this view who are advanced in other areas enough to be a reliable source of information.

I'm going to state this again, and I normally dislike doing this because it sounds conceited.. but, I've had daily contact, spanning 20 or so years, with a range of people who were true psychics. They astral traveled at will, read minds, could see with their eyes closed, see auras and chakras, had ready access to their guides and other spirits/angels, could move objects with their minds, and much more that I'm not ready to share. In every case, they've explained that chakras are necessary and important.

For people that are coming into this thread and considering closing off your chakras, do your research first. Decide for yourself what you're willing to believe and who is providing that information; why they are giving it, how much authority they have on the subject, and whether the action is good for you at this stage. I'd argue that it's never good... but everyone is free to make up their own minds and live their own lives.

Originally Posted by Carnate

I love a good debate.. particularly when people are logical and open minded. Unfortunately, I could see emotions running a little high, comments were starting to get a little sharp, and they were being directed towards specific people.

I tried to make it clear I was not singling anyone out. I also said that explicitly where I thought my sentences could be explained that way. Not being a native english speaker or writer I may have missed one or two such occasions.

Where the cognitive dissonance gets in in the way I meant it and not yours truly is in the statements that chakra removal is impossible accompanied by projections of what supposedly happens to people when they would succeed in removing them. Die a miserable and unenlightened death backtracking their spiritual growth for eons.

The certainty with which some people bring these "warnings" to the fore indicate to me that the idea of the chakra as a necessity is taken as a given and as such makes it inconceivable ie. minds closed to a different possibility ie cognitive dissonance. to the idea that the chakra may not be all that one believed about them.

Where it differs from my cognitive dissonance is that even though I am rather stuck in my idea that the chakra are not what they appear to be. They are useful as tools for spiritual growth. I keep an open mind to their usage, their supposed benefits and try to harmonize my ideas about them with they way they supposedly give rise to an opening of what we still perceive as "para" normal abilities and spiritual growth.

I guess I could be accused of cognitive dissonance if I started to spread my fears of utilizing the chakra's. But I tend to keep those to myself specifically to let people make their own decisions about using the idea of chakra to clear their energy patterns.

Does that answer your "hypothetical" question?

With Love
Eelco

[Melahin]

Originally Posted by Carnate

the people that vouch for it are the 'everyday' psychics following advice from other 'everyday' psychics.

Haha I think @dryad can vouch that I don't really give beep what others say on these matters. I have a desire that I follow, and on these matters what follows is what flows in that direction. That my own ability to not wholeheartedly believe in this desire have pulled me apart in many ways (is another story).

My slight search into tantra after it was introduced to me from the inside through visions of Dionysus, has not shown chakras as a necessity, only as a tool for the rising Kundalini. In at least one case it was described that it devoured the chakras as it passed through them, in another case the end result was a body that was empty yet felt full. Not a body full of organs, chakras and whats not, a body that was empty yet full. I found that quite interesting. Still in the Tantra I was given there are no chakras, likewise there are many other energy systems that have no mention of them as others have pointed at, made by people who were very aware/knowledgeable of the subtle realms. Yet maybe there are no subtle realms, but only ways in which you relate to yourself, and the expansion of your being?

I was shown myself as a god unlocking a greater part of myself in Tartaros. Later that part grew to a world of its own, an inner world that kept growing and blossoming. It is a great story, and it holds things that I easily can relate to. Like I don't deny desiring to be a Titan. Maybe I was one long before I entered this world to experience this unfolding? Maybe I wasn't. Like @dryad say one thing because that is what she sees. Another person say Elohim, and a third very skilled person clearly say Titan. I like the latter because for some reason I relate better to it. He who talked about Elohim clearly said that those he relate to as Elohim incarnate without a soul. Haha and I do remember giving birth to something in me that others have related to as a soul, and I get that, yet it was an idea I was not ready to yet so it pulled me in what felt like a million direction. It basically was a stepping stone because I was not ready to face a greater truth within me. Yet how anyone perceive all of this is basically irrelevant, because since I cannot become less than I desire to be, I am simply too curious of where this path might lead me... and have grown tired of people so closed up in their own universe that they have no room for a diverse thought that their universe is not the only one, and other universes might be completely different.

I get that about being closed up since I don't really believe in an open mind, since you cannot really go too far out of the range of your desire before you feel dissonance. Yet you can have a curious mind that finds delight in other peoples wisdom, and in that way can see what puzzles might fit in to your puzzle.

@carnate why is it that you believe you need the chakras?

[Carnate]

It looks like a language and semantic barrier is coming to light here.

I'm going to respond to the latest two posts without making quotes because some of the content applies to both posters.

The 'hypothetical question' didn't really ask for a response, partly because it can't be responded to without risk of incriminating yourself. Having said that, I think you've responded well to the 'question' and can accept that both sides may be working with misleading information.

Chakras are energy conduits. They link information between your subtle bodies, so (eg) information from your astral body reaches your physical body. Additionally, these energies govern how your physical body is created (born), how in functions, and how it responds to external and internal influences. Your chakras essentially tie your various bodies together and allow them to experience one form of expression while retaining a connection the other subtle realms. As a core concept, nothing happens in the physical body without it first happening in your subtle bodies.

To help clarify, I'll give an example. If you cut your arm, your physical body responds by sending white blood cells to ward off infection and platelets to clot the wound. These navigate your veins to reach the wound and take effect. The body will form a fibrin net that functions like a small brain (yes, neural tissue) to help direct the healing process. New tissue is formed from fibroblasts that slot into place as directed. Seems like an entirely physical activity...

But all this is directed from your subtle bodies; through your chakras. Your body needs help working out where the white blood cells, platelets and other matter are, and then help directing them to the wound; each fork in your veins constricts or expands to direct specific cells to the site of injury. Your body doesn't mass produce cells with the hope of enough of them randomly reaching a specific location (and then reabsorbing/disposing of the excess). Each cell in your body receives information about what form it needs to take and where it needs to go, and what it needs to do when it gets there. Your subtle bodies direct your physical body in performing tasks like this.

On a side note, most cancers are a result of healthy cell matter being incorrectly directed. There's a problem, cells are sent to fix it.. but they don't get there. The body continues to release cells as the problem persists, only for them to build up in the wrong location.

There's a lot of good research being done on how the subtle bodies interact with the physical body, and scientists are only starting to accept that there's more at play here than just the physical; because there are activities in the body that they can't explain otherwise. I saw some of these recently, but didn't bookmark it.. didn't think I'd need it.

The other side of this is more easily explained when related to your astral senses. When you see auras, chakras, spirits, guides, or anything that could be classified as existing in the subtle realms, you are using the senses of your subtle bodies. You have a pineal gland that is linked to your third eye chakra, in a similar way that your other chakras are connected to other organs. When you see a spirit, you're making use of your astral senses, and that information goes through your third eye / pineal gland and is transferred to your physical brain. Without your third eye chakra, that information wouldn't reach your brain.

Similarly, each of your chakras links to each of your subtle bodies and allows energy to flow through. This factors in your mind, emotions, instincts, interests, etc. Closing these down cancels out each of these components of 'self-expression'.

When considered overall, anything that happens in the subtle bodies also happens in the physical; with information from the subtle bodies transferring through the chakras. Without your chakras, you would lose your connection with your astral, emotional, mental, spiritual, ethenical, and other bodies.. meaning, you would no longer be 'you'. If you managed to disconnect your chakras from your physical body, you would essentially spontaneously astral travel.. and your physical body would near instantly revert back to an animalistic pre-instinctual being that isn't 'you'. It would lose consciousness and self awareness, and focus entirely on bodily needs.. for as long as it could survive without assistance from having a soul.



I was going to respond to the Gods / Titans topic, but this is already quite long, it's late, and it would take us away from the chakra removal idea.

[Melahin]

@carnate I don't believe either of us are working with misleading information.

Here is how I see it:
Every cell in your body is in a constant communication with your inner being, source, soul or what you want to call it, and this communication is translated through you. So whether it happens or not in one way or another is completely up to whether or not you let this flow of source energy flow through you or not. I have heard stories where people say they cut themselves, and could heal this instantly without "physical" assistance from the body. Quite interesting.

Now if the talk about the body, then from my vantage point I see it as the most focused point of your entire being. It is your source manifest, not something apart from it that need to jump through hoops to be connected. Every part of you is connected because it is source.

Now what might the chakras then be? Maybe it is a tool to focus your mind into alignment with your source, and by playing with your chakras you actually train your mind to stay in focus, thus brings your physical body more into clarity. Now if you have focused so intensely on the chakras that they have become a subtle physical reality, and you now are depended on it to stay in balance, then of course you should never shut them down. On the other hand you could work on refining your belief in them, and in that make them dissolve into themselves when they no longer is a necessity. Now I never worked on removing them, or had heard of it before the idea came like a light bulb in my head. In the first try I could feel it not letting go at the root. Two days later when the idea returned during a meditation I did it again, and it released, and instantly the feeling in my body changed in ways similar to what others have described. I describe it as how I imagine Iron Man feels with that thing in the chest. Now I don't even feel that anymore, the same way that I no longer can feel the wings I for some month felt until I either integrated or removed a "loose" element within me (long story) haha

When I say I don't believe any of us are working with misleading information, then it is because I think we are both working accurately with the information our focus is giving us. I tend to say that if you can do it in one world (imagined, subtle, astral or ??) then you can do it in all worlds, so the question is not whether but how Now it is not for me to say whether or not you need your chakras? It is a question you have to answer for yourself. I know that I have spend way too much time doubting myself on the backhand on people not believing in the world I see. So if you just let go and simply drift, then what do you want to believe in? and does it differ from you current belief?

Is the world not 100% fluid, and the only reason why it appears physical is because we focus it in such a way?

Originally Posted by Carnate

The 'hypothetical question' didn't really ask for a response, partly because it can't be responded to without risk of incriminating yourself.

I am not above anything human. And I mean anything so incriminating myself is the least of my worries.

It appears as if by describing what chakra's are in your worldview you try to convince me/us? of their truth. Why do you think that what you write about the nature of the chakra is more convincing than what is said in every book about them.

Even though it may look like I have dismissed the chakra's for what they are in light of some other popular-ish new belief -ism. I can assure you that I have worked with chakra's extensively in the past. Others here seem to have a rather in depth view about them also.

Rather than telling us what the chakra's are, would you mind telling us how you work with them?
I think that the link you suggest is there between the physical and the energetic/astral are in realities nothing more than conceptual shortcut's that make it easier to think about such a link. Gathering similarities in ways that make it possible to work with the whole in more managable chunks.

In itself there is nothing wrong with that. And like I said before that is a use of chakra's I can totaly understand.
By taking the concept as "das ding an sich" The concept becomes less flexible. Solidifies in ways that I feel are unhealthy.

Now that space is where one should search for a better/ more flexible concept.
Now I wholeheartedly agree with the "fact" that energy can guide physical processes. I have read stories of men lactating milk for their babies for instance. The reminiralization of teeth. and of course the more siddic side of life where bi-location, levitation and any number of spiritual/energetic attainment is achieved through working with (or without) chakra's.

The work of Bruce Lipton comes to mind.
Anyway I am rambling again while I said I wouldn't. So I'm a liar also..

We could discuss the workings of the pineal gland, but that would go beyond the scope of this thread.

With Love
Eelco