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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Religions & Faiths > Hinduism

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  #11  
Old 13-07-2017, 12:25 PM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Honza
Many people claim that reality is only and nothing but the "I". Which is the general gist of Hinduism and Buddhism. My question is; can or does The God exist as well? I'm talking about the EXTERNAL God. The HIGHER God. The God who is not *just* "I".

For a real God to exist He would have to exist alongside the "I"; as a reality separate from and independent of the "I".

Is this possible? This is what the Abrahamic Religions suggest; that it is possible. I'm not so sure what the Eastern Religions suggest......
Namaste Honza.

I'm bumping up this very old thread because I need to relate something to you and this is the only way I can help you to understand what it is you are feeling and going through, for you see, I have also been through it.

I've noticed recently you are still having problems with I AM and want to raise the whole issue again. The question you asked here and my subsequent reply will settle this once and for all.

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...9&postcount=23

My dear soul, I AM, You ARE and everything IS!

I once believed as you, that both the "I" and "God" could not exist simultaneously once I 'became God' or 'merged in God'. Thus I became very scared because I didn't want to become that which I loved.

I also thought that 'I AM' meant 'God was NOT' because saying 'I AM God' or "I AM" and by being so, would totally nullify the existence of God as being something/anything other than what 'I AM'.

It is a mental conundrum and one that is solved only through direct experience.

See, there is 'I' or the Ego, then there is God, which is not I nor Ego, then there is that which is neither myself/I NOR God. There are no concepts nor relative terms involved here whatsoever.

When we exist within our own self-awareness, there is the "I" and there is "God" and when we exist in God awareness, there is still the "I" and there is still "God", but who we are, who that little "I" is, is totally insignificant by comparison - to such an extent that the "I" is no longer important because ALL is God and yet, the "I" still remains.

Before I merge into Shiva, There is "I" and there is "Shiva" we are separate, we are lover and beloved. When I fully merge into Shiva, ALL is Shiva, and that includes but does not exclude what "I" am.

However, because this state is so exquisitely wonderful and profoundly intense, full of so much love and joy my heart wants to implode from extreme bliss, just a few moments is all this poor soul can stand whilst still remaining alive. At that time, for those few minutes, there is NO Shiva and NO Necro...there's just pure, ecstatic, indescribable stuff going on.

Once that is over and I come down a notch, still in a total bliss state but not in the full absorption into bliss (which I doubt anybody can fully sustain at the topmost level for any longer than about 5 minutes IF that), it goes back to being "I" and "Shiva" again, but things have changed a bit since before the bliss...everything is glowing from within. Everything is alive with energy and moving fluidly throughout about 6 different dimensions at once, but throughout the whole experience basically, both God and I exist simultaneously!

The ocean becomes the drop, but the ocean is still the ocean and the drop is still the drop.

When people say "I AM" it's just a rather crude way of describing it all and yes, it's a bit egocentric in a way.

What it is, in a nutshell, is the Mano Sharira (Mind Sheath) identifying with the Jivatman (Embodied Soul).

This of course has nothing to do with the Ananda Sharira (Bliss Sheath) identifying with the Paramatman (God-Soul). That is a whole different ball-game and it's like comparing chalk and cheese, my friend.

I hope this answers your question and you can see how:

1. God and I can exist both independently and simultaneously &
2. When people say "I AM" it usually means "I have the same stuff inside me that the universe is made from, but I'm not the universe".

So, please take this from a Hindu who once was against the whole "I AM" notion, until I discovered that "I AM AND God IS".

Om Namah Shivaya
Om Shanti Shanti Shantih
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  #12  
Old 13-07-2017, 01:49 PM
markings markings is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Honza
Many people claim that reality is only and nothing but the "I". Which is the general gist of Hinduism and Buddhism. My question is; can or does The God exist as well? I'm talking about the EXTERNAL God. The HIGHER God. The God who is not *just* "I".

For a real God to exist He would have to exist alongside the "I"; as a reality separate from and independent of the "I".

Is this possible? This is what the Abrahamic Religions suggest; that it is possible. I'm not so sure what the Eastern Religions suggest......
There is no "I", be that in a personal sense or universal "I AM" sense. There is also no God.

There is only that which is, without features or characteristics. Everything you think about it is just made up and has no relation to it.
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  #13  
Old 13-07-2017, 02:05 PM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markings
There is no "I", be that in a personal sense or universal "I AM" sense. There is also no God.

There is only that which is, without features or characteristics. Everything you think about it is just made up and has no relation to it.
That being said, any 'God' that is 'made up' or otherwise can ultimately lead to the state in which Brahman is experientially realised, and so for the sake of argument, Ishwara (God) is a means unto an end and therefore does exist to serve that end.

I personally know that Shiva exists and you do not. Let's just put it that way.

Om Batuk Bhairavaye Namah
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  #14  
Old 13-07-2017, 03:38 PM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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“The one absolute, impersonal Existence, together with his inscrutable Maya, appears as the Divine Lord, the personal God, endowed with manifold glories. By His Divine Power He holds dominion over all the worlds. At the periods of creation and dissolution of the universe, He alone exists. Those who realize Him become immortal.”

"Rudra indeed is that one, without a second, who rules all these worlds with His supreme powers, who stands in front of all creatures, who protects the worlds He creates and who withdraws them in the end. He who is hidden in all beings, who is everywhere, He is the Universal Lord, the omnipresent Shiva". (Shvetashvatara Upanishad 3:1-2).

Joy! I just found a beautiful article written by one of my Gurus, Swami Krishnananda Saraswati of Rishikesh on the whole subject. It says it ALL and nothing more can ever be added to this. Enjoy:

http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/phil/phil_09.html

Aum Namo Bhagavate Rudraaya
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  #15  
Old 14-07-2017, 06:39 AM
markings markings is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Necromancer
I personally know that Shiva exists and you do not. Let's just put it that way.
That sounds a little arrogant. You know me that well?
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  #16  
Old 14-07-2017, 07:53 AM
markings markings is offline
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The Tao Te Ching
The Tao that can be named is not the true Tao

Likewise
The God that can be named is not the true God - and you all seem to name your God(s)

What we can further deduce from the text is that whatever you think, and thinking consists of 'naming' things, here we take naming in the broadest sense possible, is not the ultimate, is not the truth, let alone the absolute truth.
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  #17  
Old 14-07-2017, 08:31 AM
Being Being is offline
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The Atman & Brahman are One.

One Reality - Second None.
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  #18  
Old 14-07-2017, 08:48 AM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markings
That sounds a little arrogant. You know me that well?
Namaste.

I know that if you knew, we wouldn't be having this conversation as there would be no requirement.

The Jivatman is part and parcel of Brahman, but it is not Brahman because it is still embodied and therefore cannot be. It says so in the Bhagavad Gita and according to my Guru.

Quote:
The Tao Te Ching
The Tao that can be named is not the true Tao
1. Yet, they still name it as the Tao - a bit ironic, isn't it?
2. I am not a Taoist, I am a Hindu.

I am also going to take advantage of a previous opportunity:

Quote:
Originally Posted by markings
There is also no God.

Now, because you didn't ask me to prove there was a God when you had the opportunity to do so, you came straight out and made the claim 'There is no God' so guess what? The burden of proof now rests with you and not myself anymore. So, please prove to me there is no God, as that onus is now yours for making that claim.

Aum Namah Shivaya
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  #19  
Old 14-07-2017, 09:02 AM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Being
The Atman & Brahman are One.

One Reality - Second None.
Would that be Saguna Brahman or Nirguna Brahman then?
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  #20  
Old 14-07-2017, 09:16 AM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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hmmm..thinking a bit more about the Tao Teh Ching vs Ananda Lahari by Adi Shankaracharya.

Although I am a very strange one, a Shaivite who follows the path of Ramanuja and Madhava as far as Vishishtadvatia and Achinya Bedha Abheda or Qualified Monism is concerned (Disagreeing with Abhivinagupta and the Trika School of Tantra on quite a few points along the way), I'm also taking into full account the pretext to the Isha Upanishad here:

ॐ पूर्णमदः पूर्णमिदं पूर्णात्पुर्णमुदच्यते
पूर्णस्य पूर्णमादाय पूर्णमेवावशिष्यते ॥
ॐ शान्तिः शान्तिः शान्तिः ॥


Om Puurnnam-Adah Puurnnam-Idam Puurnnaat-Purnnam-Udacyate
Puurnnasya Puurnnam-Aadaaya Puurnnam-Eva-Avashissyate ||
Om Shaantih Shaantih Shaantih ||

Meaning:
1: Om, That (Outer World) is Purna (Full with Divine Consciousness); This (Inner World) is also Purna (Full with Divine Consciousness); From Purna comes Purna (From the Fullness of Divine Consciousness the World is manifested) ,
2: Taking Purna from Purna, Purna Indeed Remains (Because Divine Consciousness is Non-Dual and Infinite).
3: Om Peace, Peace, Peace.

Namam and rupam (Devata) or the 'Tao that can be named' is a representation of Brahman!

God isn't Brahman in the whole experiential sense of the word.

What Brahman is, according to Veda, is Satchitananda - Truth, Pure Consciousness and Bliss.

For some, this is also what the Anandamaya Kosha represents. For others, this is what an external Deity with attribute (guna) also represents: Ultimate Truth, Ultimate Consciousness and Ultimate Bliss - Brahman.

Thus Brahman can be known through Iswara (God) as the representation of the Energy or effulgence of Brahman (Purusha) combined with the Shakti of Brahman which is Maya (Prakriti) according to the Rig Veda...and of course, Shiva can only be known through Shakti and Shakti can only be known through Shiva.

Confused you all enough yet with what I know about my own religion? :P

JAI ARDHARNARISHWARA! Jai Shiva Shakti!!
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