Is all Mind Chatter part of Ego? Even if its positive ?

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by jay.kishan

This is what i think to but here is a confusion.
Then it becomes a 'desire' to stop the mind from chattering, becomes something mind wants to achieve.
Awareness has no desires.

A good point. There does seem to be a contradiction if the impulse to stop the mind chatter is just another mental desire, itself part of the mind chatter. We cannot use the mind to control the mind.

Another perspective. In meditation we become aware of the mind chatter. We then learn that it is possible to eliminate this mind chatter. As Patanjali says, Yoga is the suppression of the modifications of the mind. We decide that we would like to suppress the modifications of the mind.

This is maybe an aspiration rather than a desire. This is more than just semantics. As Sri Chinmoy said "The outer cry is the cry for name, fame, power and material prosperity. This is called desire. When we cry for peace, light, bliss and other divine things, this is aspiration."

Our aspiration to still the mental chatter involves the use of will, and there are various levels of will. A simple definition of will is sustained focus. To begin with, we may use will on the mental level to stop the inner chatter. This is difficult because we are using the mind to try to control the mind. But if we can invoke spiritual will then this is more powerful than the mind, and focus is naturally sustained.

But it requires practice, practice and more practice until it becomes our natural state. And I have not got there yet.

Peace.

Originally Posted by iamthat

But it requires practice, practice and more practice until it becomes our natural state.

And with proper technique. That is gently letting go of thoughts and other distractions that arise during practice and returning to the object of meditation and without judgment. The judgment part being judgment of how poorly one is practicing, which is just more thinking. There's a concept called zero meditation and as long as one brings open-hearted awareness to it it's just as beneficial as a 'good' sitting.

The brain is amazingly plastic and consistent practice will induce change including physical rewiring of neural pathways. I believe the proper term in the context of meditation is samskaras.

[jay.kishan]

Originally Posted by enaid

Hi Jay and great topic !

I’m at a place where I simply can’t stand the thoughts that crowd into my head, most of which I don’t even want to be thinking. Meditation for me has always been difficult as I don’t seem to be able to come to any kind of adjustment to this situation. I hear about people who’re able to find a deeper place in themselves and I envy them! The best I can do is keep busy in order to keep the thoughts at bay.

Hello Enaid. I would suggest that you must go through Alan Watts audios on youtube. There is nothing about other humans you need to envy, specially when it comes to meditation or mind.

Alan Watts and also Moji puts it really nicely. They say that you are the Divine, you already ARE, you are just pretending that YOU ARE NOT. Person wakes up, when he wants to wake up.

The person inside you who is envying others, is the person between you and divine. No need to achieve anything in meditation, dont try to stop the mind. Just SEE. Just look at it without judgement, observe, let it wander, just follow it and youll realize how mind deceives you.

[jay.kishan]

Originally Posted by iamthat

A good point.

When we cry for peace, light, bliss and other divine things, this is aspiration.[/i]"


But it requires practice, practice and more practice until it becomes our natural state. And I have not got there yet.

Peace.

iamthat, i got your point. Maybe i am wrong, but here is what i think about that.

You need not to aspire bliss, light or peace, since essentially, the consciousness working from within is in that state already. But yet not in our experience.

When we aspire for such things, that means we attach an outcome to our practice that we want to achieve and hence you know it wont work until you are detached from the outcome completely.

You know bliss, light or peace ? have you ever experienced it ? Then how do we know our meditation will lead to all this.
These are the prejudices we need to drop to realize the bliss/light.

Just focus on the point of consciousness, be there, be aware. I think that will lead to the ultimate.

Originally Posted by jay.kishan

You know bliss, light or peace ? have you ever experienced it ? Then how do we know our meditation will lead to all this.
These are the prejudices we need to drop to realize the bliss/light.

Just focus on the point of consciousness, be there, be aware. I think that will lead to the ultimate.

You are practicing for spiritual reasons and not secular benefits as you mentioned 'awakening' in your OP, correct? You are correct in focusing on the means (the practice) and not the ends (awakening, enlightenment, liberation). There's a saying in Zen and I'm paraphrasing: "That which you seek you cannot find".

How much attention or significance do you give to the space meditation opens between awareness and mind? That is key to eventually shifting identification from mind to awareness, and all the real benefits from from that.

[jay.kishan]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

You are practicing for spiritual reasons and not I'm paraphrasing: "That which you seek you cannot find".

Exactly my point, its the mind, the ego which is seeking and it will never get you there. Just sit, close your eyes and see. Dont seek anything.

This is what the mind set should be i guess

Originally Posted by jay.kishan

Exactly my point, its the mind, the ego which is seeking and it will never get you there. Just sit, close your eyes and see. Dont seek anything.

This is what the mind set should be i guess

Yes, absolutely. But what I said about the space opened between awareness and mind is really important and outside of practice it would probably be beneficial to soak up as much as you can and from a philosophical perspective.

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by jay.kishan

You need not to aspire bliss, light or peace, since essentially, the consciousness working from within is in that state already. But yet not in our experience.

When we aspire for such things, that means we attach an outcome to our practice that we want to achieve and hence you know it wont work until you are detached from the outcome completely.

You know bliss, light or peace ? have you ever experienced it ? Then how do we know our meditation will lead to all this.
These are the prejudices we need to drop to realize the bliss/light.

Just focus on the point of consciousness, be there, be aware. I think that will lead to the ultimate.

Actually, I enjoy inner Light every time I meditate. And I have experienced overwhelming bliss in meditation to the point where I had to come out of meditation because I couldn't take any more. And I have entered states of great peace and stillness where the mind and all its contents do not exist. So yes, I know that my meditation leads to all these things.

As you say, light and peace and bliss are our natural state - we just have to learn to return there. Aspiration provides the motivation to sit down and meditate.

You say "Just focus on the point of consciousness, be there, be aware. I think that will lead to the ultimate." This suggests some kind of aspiration.

When I emphasised the need for practice I was referring specifically to stilling the mind chatter.

Peace

[ocean breeze]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

Absolutely. In the Freudian model there's the ID (the primitive, the reptilian part of the brain), the Superego (moral conscience and a function of the higher brain) and the Ego moderates/mediates between the two based on the demands and norms of society.

I have no interest in Freud. I've never read the Freudian model. I have more interest in people thinking, exploring, and coming to their own conclusion about what is or isn't true. But it appears as though people just want easy answers instead of thinking and figuring it out for themselves.

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

In the sense that's discussed here ego is an out of balance condition where either the Id or Superego exerts too much influence.

From an egotistic point of view, yes, the ego can be out of balance. Therefore something must be done. And the endless merry-go-round continues.

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

My impression is it's an interplay between awareness and mind. With enough awareness true free will is possible. That is ego is an obvious object of awareness and can gently be let go just like when thoughts arise during meditative practice.

You can become aware of something then mind/ego can work for or against. Ego aware of itself. Ego wanting to meditate to rid itself of itself.

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

In the context I was considering - a meetup group - I would be on my own. Here are two major points of concern.

1 - It's not advisable for persons with mental health challenges to undertake meditative practice outside of professional care or guidance. It's very possible, if not likely, suppressed emotions and memories can be dredged up that the practitioner is in no way prepared to handle.

2 - Dark Night of the Soul.

So getting back to my original point ego could pervert something altruistic for its own purposes and without regard for the potential negative consequences.

I agree with your first major point.

[jay.kishan]

Originally Posted by iamthat

.

When I emphasised the need for practice I was referring specifically to stilling the mind chatter.

Peace

I have experienced that too brother. But you have to agree that for someone, who hasnt seen all of this, has not come in his experience. The prejudice of experiencing all this will take him no where. Because he will.be expecting bliss light in his own limited knowledge.

And for the people who have already for there and experienced the light/bliss. They know its beyond imagination and thats why they are not EXPECTING anything in return, they know if they meditate properly, they will reach that point. That internal feeling comes from the core and tears dont stop.