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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Non Duality

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  #11  
Old 16-11-2017, 11:39 AM
Iamit Iamit is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by django
Non-duality is a philosophy masquerading as The Truth IMO, especially the ridiculous neo-advaitan conclusions. Too intellectual, too shallow, and not enough in the body and heart. Just my opinion of course.

Once the idea that one can know the truth has been trancended (left behind), that is no longer an issue. If it is still believed that one can know the truth then indeed it remains an issue. I hope there is nothing hidden that will some day come to light and contradict what you now believe to be the true. People find that a very painful experience when it happens and at some point it usually does.
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  #12  
Old 16-11-2017, 11:50 AM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamit
Once the idea that one can know the truth has been trancended (left behind), that is no longer an issue. If it is still believed that one can know the truth then indeed it remains an issue. I hope there is nothing hidden that will some day come to light and contradict what you now believe to be the true. People find that a very painful experience when it happens and at some point it usually does.
I understood this though and can agree 100%. The 'truth' which can be 'known' is not the truth. Can the mind know itself? can a thought think itself into existence? People can chase their own philosophical tails for years and get no-where, reminding me of that age-old story:

Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era (1868-1912), received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen.
Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor’s cup full, and then kept on pouring.
The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. “It is overfull. No more will go in!”
“Like this cup,” Nan-in said, “you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?”
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  #13  
Old 16-11-2017, 01:27 PM
jonesboy jonesboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamit
Once the idea that one can know the truth has been trancended (left behind), that is no longer an issue. If it is still believed that one can know the truth then indeed it remains an issue. I hope there is nothing hidden that will some day come to light and contradict what you now believe to be the true. People find that a very painful experience when it happens and at some point it usually does.

So you can't know the truth, so give up on knowing the truth and once you do you are free?

Really?

Jesus said it a little differently.

61. Jesus said, "Two will recline on a couch; one will die, one will live." Salome said, "Who are you mister? You have climbed onto my couch and eaten from my table as if you are from someone." Jesus said to her, "I am the one who comes from what is whole. I was granted from the things of my Father." "I am your disciple." "For this reason I say, if one is whole, one will be filled with light, but if one is divided, one will be filled with darkness."

That would be the realization of one being filled with the light and if you haven't realized the light you are in darkness

24. His disciples said, "Show us the place where you are, for we must seek it." He said to them, "Anyone here with two ears had better listen! There is light within a person of light, and it shines on the whole world. If it does not shine, it is dark."

I would also say that your understanding of AV seems to be limited. AV is not a do nothing practice. It is a tradition with many practices. AV is non dual which is much different than Oneness

Many traditions disagree with AV because it states the end state is a silent nothingness. Traditions like KS would say that is only half, that is the void aspect and one has yet to realize the form/light Shakti aspect of things.

All the best :)
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  #14  
Old 16-11-2017, 05:46 PM
Moondance Moondance is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
'There is no you' is the basic tenet of non-duality. I think it means to say that there isn't a personal/individual awareness, only an individualised experience - no one is here to experience it.

Can you get the felt-sense that in this that’s happening… there is ONLY this that’s happening. The phenomenal ‘you’ is a modulation of this. It has no separate, inherent existence. It’s borne out of and sustained by a vast web of complex conditions. When these conditions subside so does the self. In dreams it becomes looser and unbound. In deep sleep it dissolves. There is no actual, intrinsic self - what we experience is the phenomenal/conventional self.

What is this essential ______ which moment by moment gives rise to it all? No one knows. We can call it Oneness or Source or Reality (or God if you prefer) but these are merely placeholder for something truly ineffable.
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  #15  
Old 16-11-2017, 06:16 PM
Badcopyinc
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Yes i am nothing!!


Quote:
First thing: we live with the ego, in the ego, centered in the ego. I am without knowing who I am. I
go on announcing, ”I am.” This ”I-am-ness” is false, because I do not know who I am. And unless I
know who I am, how can I say ”I”? This ”I” is a false ”I”. This false ”I” is the ego. This is the defense.
This protects you from surrendering.

You cannot surrender, but you can become aware of this defense measure. If you have become
aware of it, it dissolves. By and by, you are not strengthening it, and one day you come to feel, ”I
am not.” The moment you come to feel ”I am not,” surrender happens. So try to find out whether you
are. Really, is there any center in you that you can call your ”I”?. Go deep down within yourself, go
on trying to find out where is this ”I”, where is the abode of this ego.


Quote:
Rinzai went to his master and he said, ”Give me freedom!” The master said, ”Bring yourself. If you
are, I will make you free. But if you are not, then how can I make you free? You are already free. And
freedom,” his master said, ”is not your freedom. Really, freedom is freedom from ‘you’. So go and
find out where this ‘I’ is, where you are, then come to me. This is the meditation. Go and meditate.”

So the disciple Rinzai goes and meditates for weeks, months, and then he comes. Then he says, ”I
am not the body. Only this much I have found.” So the master says, ”This much you have become
free. Go again. Try to find out.” Then he tries, meditates, and he finds that ”I am not my mind,
because I can observe my thoughts. So the observer is different from the observed – I am not my
mind.” He comes and says, ”I am not my mind.” So his master says, ”Now you are three-fourths
liberated. Now go again and find out who you are.”
So he was thinking, ”I am not my body. I am not my mind.” He had read, studied, he was well
informed, so he was thinking, ”I am not my body, not my mind, so I must be my soul, my ATMA.” But
he meditated, and then he found that there is no atman, no soul, because this atma is nothing but
your mental information – just doctrines, words, philosophies.

So he came running one day and he said, ”Now I am no more!” Then his master said, ”Am I now to
teach you the methods for freedom?” Rinzai said, ”I am free because I am no more. There is no one
to be in bondage. I am just a wide emptiness, a nothingness.”

Only nothingness can be free. If you are something, you will be in bondage. If you are, you will
be in bondage. Only a void, a vacant space, can be free. Then you cannot bind it. Rinzai came
running and said, ”I am no more. Nowhere am I to be found.” This is freedom. And for the first time
he touched his master’s feet – for the first time! Not actually, because he had touched them many
times before also. But the master said, ”For the first time you have touched my feet.”
Rinzai asked, ”Why do you say for the first time? I have touched your feet many times.” The master
said, ”But you were there, so how could you touch my feet while you were already there? While
you are there how can you touch my feet?” The ”I” can never touch anybody’s feet. Even though
it apparently looks like it touches somebody’s feet, it is touching its own feet, just in a round-about
way. ”You have touched my feet for the first time,” the master said, ”because now you are no more.
And this is also the last time,” the master said. ”The first and the last.”
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  #16  
Old 16-11-2017, 08:51 PM
blossomingtree blossomingtree is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
'There is no you' is the basic tenet of non-duality. I think it means to say that there isn't a personal/individual awareness, only an individualised experience - no one is here to experience it.

That's a gross oversimplification, not sure it's accurate.

Even Wiki has a better definition:

In spirituality, nondualism, also called non-duality, means "not two" or "one undivided without a second".[1][2] Nondualism primarily refers to a mature state of consciousness, in which the dichotomy of I-other is 'transcended', and awareness is described as 'centerless' and 'without dichotomies'.[web 1] Although this state of consciousness may seem to appear spontaneous,[note 1] it usually is the "result" of prolonged ascetic and meditational/contemplative practice, which includes ethical injunctions. While the term "nondualism" is derived from Advaita Vedanta, nondual consciousness can be found within Hinduism (Turiya, sahaja), Buddhism (Buddha-nature, rigpa, shentong), and western neo-Platonic traditions (henosis, mystical union).
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  #17  
Old 16-11-2017, 09:07 PM
blossomingtree blossomingtree is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamit
Once the idea that one can know the truth has been trancended (left behind), that is no longer an issue. If it is still believed that one can know the truth then indeed it remains an issue. I hope there is nothing hidden that will some day come to light and contradict what you now believe to be the true. People find that a very painful experience when it happens and at some point it usually does.

I think that this would only be true if all the spiritual teachers were all blowing smoke. i.e. They did indeed come to know and live Truth intimately and then taught -

Buddha said:

"This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Nibbana." — AN 3.32

Jesus encouraged:

"Ask, and it will be given you. Seek, and you will: find. Knock, and it will be opened for you."

They did not agree to say "we can just agree there is nothing to do and lie back telling everyone else to give up like us".

The last statement seems to be a subtle (or not so subtle) attempt to instill fear in another - a common theme you use on these forums for some bizarre minded reason lol.
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  #18  
Old 16-11-2017, 10:27 PM
django django is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blossomingtree
I think that this would only be true if all the spiritual teachers were all blowing smoke. i.e. They did indeed come to know and live Truth intimately and then taught -

Buddha said:

"This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Nibbana." — AN 3.32

Jesus encouraged:

"Ask, and it will be given you. Seek, and you will: find. Knock, and it will be opened for you."

They did not agree to say "we can just agree there is nothing to do and lie back telling everyone else to give up like us".

The last statement seems to be a subtle (or not so subtle) attempt to instill fear in another - a common theme you use on these forums for some bizarre minded reason lol.

Neither of these very fine quotes suggest non-dualism to me though.
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  #19  
Old 16-11-2017, 10:32 PM
django django is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shivani Devi
I agree somewhat...and yet, as a classical Advaita Vedantin...who also happens to be a Bhakti Yogi...yeah, I know...I know. lol

What are the main differences between Advaita Vedanta and Neo-Advaita and what is it that mankind seems to 'repackage' under any new/neo idealism when what is even 'masquerading' as The Truth cannot be any more 'truer' with the passage of time?

It has me stumped, it really does.

One of the main differences is that neo-advaita is a perfect product for Mc Spirituality appetites in the West. Not 'truer' just a hell of a lot quicker and unhealthier.
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  #20  
Old 16-11-2017, 10:37 PM
django django is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamit
Once the idea that one can know the truth has been trancended (left behind), that is no longer an issue. If it is still believed that one can know the truth then indeed it remains an issue. I hope there is nothing hidden that will some day come to light and contradict what you now believe to be the true. People find that a very painful experience when it happens and at some point it usually does.

When something comes to light that contradicts what I now believe, then that will be what I come to believe instead. My beliefs are not set in stone, and will hopefully accommodate themselves to reality, however that shows itself.

In the meantime, I don't wish to tie myself up in philosophical knots and cul de sacs.
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