Rational Thought & The Paradox...

[Rawnrr]

Rational thought and spirituality may seem to be at odds, because rational thought deals with finite expression and spiritual observation "attempts" to deal with infinite open-minded experience. The challenge is to use your mind to keep each operating on its own terms. Because they are not at odds, they are just different tools for experiencing life.

Too often in the spiritual circles the rational mind is demonized for its limited scope, but the hypocrisy there is that as soon as spirituality is turned to thought and words it has already been rationalized. Spirituality is in the experience. Which is fine if you just want to lose yourself in the experience. But that is only a small portion of our overall existence, and while it seems free and open, it is also finite in that it disregards the other aspects of life. So therefore we take our experiences and try to understand them. That requires rationalization.

From that understanding we may attempt to share this with others, and since we cannot share experience, we share our rationalization of it. Once shared in this way we can build on it and develops processes which will lead others to that experience. These processes become ritual, and ritual is the rational scientific path to a spiritual experience.

It is here were the word "spiritual" gets confused. People can get so caught up in the ritual, the rational, that it no longer becomes about the experience but the path to the experience. ......and they begin to believe the path, or even the teacher is the spiritual aspect of it all.

So care must be taken to first accept that "spiritual" is experiential and not structured by words or thought....and that is fine, that is how it should be, we do not need to be afraid of that (many are). Then we must also accept that the rational thought is also not the end. It may seem like an end because that is the experience from its point ov view. But we have to teach ourselves that we do not need one or another point of view, all the perceptions can work together to create a more clear experience of our lives.

The spiritual experiences, the rational labels the experience. That is as far as it needs to go. Let the rational mind label, but once it starts to form conclusions, then it has gone too far. Create labels/words to share the aspects of the experience as best we can, and leave the end open to the infinite (the spiritual).


edited to add....The universe is infinite, but it is not chaotic. It may seem chaotic because of our limited experience of it and the fact that we have not found the order yet, but that is why we have a rational mind, to bring understanding and order to the infinite.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by sentient

I suppose it really does depend on where one's “Assemblage Point of Awareness” (Castaneda quote) is assembled.
Perceiving form reality only with one’s physical senses gives rise to the thought that all psychic or non-physical phenomena is irrational or just the mental aberrations of the feeble minded natives, the low IQ no-hopers unable to achieve anything real in life

The Yoga Nidra view:
http://www.ayurvedacollege.com/artic...ice-yoga-nidra

My own formula goes something like this (and others can perhaps explain this a lot better):
What our Energy Bodies/Fields subconsciously/intuitively perceive (become aware of) – the Astral level dreams up and/or our Right Hemisphere receives – which is then further condensed into words by our Left Hemispheres.



Looked Dean Radin up, and yes – sounds good!:
http://www.azquotes.com/quote/586114

Interestingly one of my Aboriginal teachers explained “Dreamtime” in very similar terms.


I used to think that all people experiencing psychic phenomena were ‘Spiritual’ (because they are aware through their Energy Fields), but now since I know 2 (malicious) narcissists who have highly developed psychic abilities, I no longer hold my former belief.

Here Dean Radin’s chart becomes interesting:
https://www.aestheticimpact.com/_Ima...pectrum2-1.gif

Because a narcissist “Assemblage Point of Awareness” is so firmly lodged in the Self-Image i.e. the validation of Me/I in-the-eyes-of-others, there is no free-and-independent-will energy left to intend anything else but the validation and the fortification of that Self-Image.
And since (in my books) the “Mystical Union” entails total surrender of the Me/I (being able achieve anything) a narcissist is (by their own will) barred from this Non-Dual Union.
But of course those who do experience Non-Duality don’t see themselves as anything especially “Spiritual” at all.

I am totally going with this!

The human ego is a very powerful, willful and stubborn thing, which is totally capable of subconsciously/unconsciously altering perceptions through cognitive dissonance to serve the agenda of the "rational mind".

Yet, what is this rationality but an unrealistic ethical concept based upon a collective social mindset of a finite four dimensional continuum? As such, of course any experience of something outside this, in the form of exstasis or transcendence is going to be seen as being "irrational"...but the whole crux of the matter is, will the ego ever be able to actually LET a person admit that to themselves or others? Suffice to say that rationality has its own time and place, but many think that is "every time" and "every place" and their arrogant, prideful ego will accept nothing less.

As for narcissists being "banned" from spirituality and having spiritual experiences...Yes and no. That all depends upon whether the narcissist is totally honest with themselves yet makes the conscious choice to be a narcissist anyway but can also shift into depersonalisation at the drop of a hat, yet remain as a witness to all the different roles they choose to play..like an actor upon a stage.

[hallow]

I was once told "you cannot mix spiritually and logic" years later and in that time I grew alot. I still believe you can. I can be stubborn and more practical than not. But the messages I need still get through. Just because the earth moves from underneath you doesn't mean it's an act of God's you can explain earthquakes. Some things you cannot explain, I'll never forget one of my first mind-blowing experiences. I met an energic older woman. She said hi to my wife and I and we made small talk about the weather. Then she walked off to talk to someone else. I finished walking to my car and drove away to another sight seeing area. As my wife and I were walking to the area we met the exact same lady walking back from where I was walking to. Now that's something you cannot explain. There was no way the exact same person could be ahead of us by at least 5min when I left and she was talking to someone else.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by hallow

I was once told "you cannot mix spiritually and logic" years later and in that time I grew alot. I still believe you can. I can be stubborn and more practical than not. But the messages I need still get through. Just because the earth moves from underneath you doesn't mean it's an act of God's you can explain earthquakes. Some things you cannot explain, I'll never forget one of my first mind-blowing experiences. I met an energic older woman. She said hi to my wife and I and we made small talk about the weather. Then she walked off to talk to someone else. I finished walking to my car and drove away to another sight seeing area. As my wife and I were walking to the area we met the exact same lady walking back from where I was walking to. Now that's something you cannot explain. There was no way the exact same person could be ahead of us by at least 5min when I left and she was talking to someone else.

Hallow...
LOL... if she was moving backwards in time, she would have had no knowledge that you'd just found her out. She wouldn't have met you yet but you'd already met her, being that we can only move forward in this 4D reality occurring in 5D at the planck level. Or perhaps she was aware of being in both places (or coming there instantaneously) and chose to let you make the connection...very interesting. Did you speak with her again at the second event?


Peace & blessings
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

I am totally going with this!

The human ego is a very powerful, willful and stubborn thing, which is totally capable of subconsciously/unconsciously altering perceptions through cognitive dissonance to serve the agenda of the "rational mind".

Yet, what is this rationality but an unrealistic ethical concept based upon a collective social mindset of a finite four dimensional continuum? As such, of course any experience of something outside this, in the form of exstasis or transcendence is going to be seen as being "irrational"...but the whole crux of the matter is, will the ego ever be able to actually LET a person admit that to themselves or others? Suffice to say that rationality has its own time and place, but many think that is "every time" and "every place" and their arrogant, prideful ego will accept nothing less.

As for narcissists being "banned" from spirituality and having spiritual experiences...Yes and no. That all depends upon whether the narcissist is totally honest with themselves yet makes the conscious choice to be a narcissist anyway but can also shift into depersonalisation at the drop of a hat, yet remain as a witness to all the different roles they choose to play..like an actor upon a stage.

Shivani, hello! I think you hit upon it...in the physical realm, we are limited by our 4D perceptions taking place in 5D, 1 planck frame at a time, in sequence. That's the physical eye of the needle through which you must pass to experience the greater fullness of What Is, but we cannot physically do that. Not unless we were God and we were able to cast an entirely different physical reality from the top down -- a universe in which these bodies and this earth and all similar probably wouldn't be able to exist, LOL. When I see this phrase that so clearly fits the multidimensional nature of reality out of the mouth of this man from the Galilee, I admit I am fairly impressed.

That's the physical ceiling at present built into the fabric of this universe, and it is a bit of a logjam unless we completely transcend the logjam through expansion of our consciousness. Specifically, through our awakened, heart-led consciousness (our centre), with awakened mind in service to heart. Like the native elder said, it is that which exists before (and beyond) space and time and we reclaim it by centreing in our awareness.

Not that we can't do our best to use our rational aspects of our awakened mind to deal with our 4D realm...of course we can and should. But we do need to be mindful of the limitations. I think when we begin to these discussions, the key thing is that many don't exactly or fully realise the nature of the limitation.

Therefore there is an assumption that the all that lies beyond the 5D planck level can (at least one day) be accessed and apprehended by the same mind and physical senses that we use to apprehend the 4D world we live in. Likewise with all other aspects of existence (in the broadest sense) that are intangible and metaphysical in the classic sense of knowing What Is.

But since the physical universe is also 4D, and we are a part of this physical universe in the physical sense....then that assumption that our physical senses and rational physical brain will fully or even partially apprehend many of these things is unfounded and purely speculative. Further, it is extremely unlikely that our 4D paraphenalia alone will be adequate or up to the task..

Yet when it comes to both everyday and mystical experiences of Love, One, centredness and so forth, we are already experiencing a much greater spectrum of What Is, far beyond just 4D -- and we experience it from a place of expanded awareness whilst present physically within our 4D physical realm. I think the disconnect begins here, and that it will continue to grow, probably exponentially

This is where the buddhists and the native elders and wisdom teachers of many traditions say not only one's own work (meditation, inner work) but also group work becomes so important. So that you have common experiences and illuminations around which to begin to build some sort of language or discourse for talking about consciousness and experiences beyond strictly 4D. The funny thing is that as long as we are in 4D, we can't get away from language it seems...but perhaps we can learn how to use it in new contexts beyond 4D.

Peace & blessings
7L

[hallow]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Hallow...
LOL... if she was moving backwards in time, she would have had no knowledge that you'd just found her out. She wouldn't have met you yet but you'd already met her, being that we can only move forward in this 4D reality occurring in 5D at the planck level. Or perhaps she was aware of being in both places (or coming there instantaneously) and chose to let you make the connection...very interesting. Did you speak with her again at the second event?


Peace & blessings
7L

The second event not much was said just a typical friendly passerby. But the energy was totally different the second time. A glowing angelic type of energy. That I can remember that first time I experienced that energy from someone. The second time I experienced that energy from someone was a few months after that.
In the time of my life when those things happened I wasn't totally convinced the spiritual world even existed. I asked for "signs" if it really existed. Those were 2 of the 3 "signs" I received. Hahaha! Yes it really exist!

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by hallow

The second event not much was said just a typical friendly passerby. But the energy was totally different the second time. A glowing angelic type of energy. That I can remember that first time I experienced that energy from someone. The second time I experienced that energy from someone was a few months after that.
In the time of my life when those things happened I wasn't totally convinced the spiritual world even existed. I asked for "signs" if it really existed. Those were 2 of the 3 "signs" I received. Hahaha! Yes it really exist!

Yes it does...that could very well have been a transcendental. They are not bound by any of the rules that apply to incarnate beings. Like those that pull folks off the kerb and ask if they're alright, to save them from being struck by a passing car or lorry...but literally vanish into thin air moments later.


Peace & blessings
7L

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Shivani, hello! I think you hit upon it...in the physical realm, we are limited by our 4D perceptions taking place in 5D, 1 planck frame at a time, in sequence. That's the physical eye of the needle through which you must pass to experience the greater fullness of What Is, but we cannot physically do that. Not unless we were God and we were able to cast an entirely different physical reality from the top down -- a universe in which these bodies and this earth and all similar probably wouldn't be able to exist, LOL. When I see this phrase that so clearly fits the multidimensional nature of reality out of the mouth of this man from the Galilee, I admit I am fairly impressed.

That's the physical ceiling at present built into the fabric of this universe, and it is a bit of a logjam unless we completely transcend the logjam through expansion of our consciousness. Specifically, through our awakened, heart-led consciousness (our centre), with awakened mind in service to heart. Like the native elder said, it is that which exists before (and beyond) space and time and we reclaim it by centreing in our awareness.

Not that we can't do our best to use our rational aspects of our awakened mind to deal with our 4D realm...of course we can and should. But we do need to be mindful of the limitations. I think when we begin to these discussions, the key thing is that many don't exactly or fully realise the nature of the limitation.

Therefore there is an assumption that the all that lies beyond the 5D planck level can (at least one day) be accessed and apprehended by the same mind and physical senses that we use to apprehend the 4D world we live in. Likewise with all other aspects of existence (in the broadest sense) that are intangible and metaphysical in the classic sense of knowing What Is.

But since the physical universe is also 4D, and we are a part of this physical universe in the physical sense....then that assumption that our physical senses and rational physical brain will fully or even partially apprehend many of these things is unfounded and purely speculative. Further, it is extremely unlikely that our 4D paraphenalia alone will be adequate or up to the task..

Yet when it comes to both everyday and mystical experiences of Love, One, centredness and so forth, we are already experiencing a much greater spectrum of What Is, far beyond just 4D -- and we experience it from a place of expanded awareness whilst present physically within our 4D physical realm. I think the disconnect begins here, and that it will continue to grow, probably exponentially

This is where the buddhists and the native elders and wisdom teachers of many traditions say not only one's own work (meditation, inner work) but also group work becomes so important. So that you have common experiences and illuminations around which to begin to build some sort of language or discourse for talking about consciousness and experiences beyond strictly 4D. The funny thing is that as long as we are in 4D, we can't get away from language it seems...but perhaps we can learn how to use it in new contexts beyond 4D.

Peace & blessings
7L

My love...

I am very quickly getting to that stage whereby 99.9℅ of people are not able to understand me anyway, no matter how "rational" I am, due to a severe discrepancy in comparative IQ levels.

To be able to communicate on any level whatsoever, requires a certain degree of "state specifics" in that, they don't have the intelligence and I don't have the ability to "dumb it down" either, so whenever anybody asks me a question about anything, they wish they never did.

To avoid making enemies, I simply have to tell others "I'm sorry, but I don't know" when I DO know, simply because if I even TRIED to explain it, they would never be able to get it, so why bother? Why risk them ending up hating you for your superior intellect?

I am tired of it...I just need to keep my insights and theories to myself because mankind is just not ready for all this yet...but it is very isolating to be the one of them only a handful in this world... meanwhile, acting much lower than my capacity, capability and personal power JUST so that I can communicate with another living soul and not have them bolt off in the opposite direction as fast as their legs can carry them...

So, until anybody ELSE has this very experience regarding rationality vs spirituality, they cannot talk! Please get back to me when you guys DO!

[hallow]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

My love...

I am very quickly getting to that stage whereby 99.9℅ of people are not able to understand me anyway, no matter how "rational" I am, due to a severe discrepancy in comparative IQ levels.

To be able to communicate on any level whatsoever, requires a certain degree of "state specifics" in that, they don't have the intelligence and I don't have the ability to "dumb it down" either, so whenever anybody asks me a question about anything, they wish they never did.

To avoid making enemies, I simply have to tell others "I'm sorry, but I don't know" when I DO know, simply because if I even TRIED to explain it, they would never be able to get it, so why bother? Why risk them ending up hating you for your superior intellect?

I am tired of it...I just need to keep my insights and theories to myself because mankind is just not ready for all this yet...but it is very isolating to be the one of them only a handful in this world... meanwhile, acting much lower than my capacity, capability and personal power JUST so that I can communicate with another living soul and not have them bolt off in the opposite direction as fast as their legs can carry them...

So, until anybody ELSE has this very experience regarding rationality vs spirituality, they cannot talk! Please get back to me when you guys DO!

I am the "dumb it down" person. I remember that one. Just had to laugh when I read that. this is a big world everyone on here is communicating with. It's not always easy to do it effectively so someone else can understand what someone else really means. I'll admit I am not taught by books or classes like a lot of people are. And I am learning how to communicate better. What I meant by having to laugh is, I am not offended by it. I just want to learn and understand. I get the same response as you do often when I am asked something. Why bother? Or people are like why bother answering that person wouldn't get it anyway. You never know, they just mite get it and your piece of wisdom could be priceless.