Atheism/naturalism is illogical

[happy soul]

Vince,

I agree that logic, as well as evidence, supports the idea that God exists.

Where I disagree with you is about Christianity. My view is that both logic and evidence point to the pantheistic (all is God) perspective of New Age and Eastern religions.

I feel that the idea of eternal hell is illogical. Reincarnation, which includes the idea of universalism (everyone has eternal happiness), is a more reasonable idea, and there have been many verifiable 'past life regressions'.

Near Death Experiences (NDEs) tend to emphasize that what matters is what's in your HEART, not your beliefs. Also, some people who have had NDEs believe in reincarnation. Many evangelicals believe NDEs are of the devil. I feel that that view is illogical, one reason being the great positive changes in the individuals who have them.

More evidence is that there have been many miracles among non-Christians, just as there have been in the lives of Christians.

Yet more evidence is the phenomenon of 'spiritual enlightenment' - a pantheistic experience in which the individual experiences oneness with God. There have been people (the number is relatively small) who have found enlightenment and testify to its validity and reality. An evangelical might think enlightenment is of the devil, but I find that explanation very improbable.

The cross is ONE way, but not the ONLY way. Christianity is ONE, but not the ONLY, path to God.

When Jesus said, 'No man cometh to the Father except through Me,' He was probably simply mistaken. It's understandable that, being the messiah, He BELIEVED He was the ONLY way, but even prophets and messiahs make mistakes.

Evangelicals say that the Bible SAYS it's true, and that that must be a message from God that it is, indeed, true. I would simply consider that poor logic. The Quran also says it's true, and so does The Book of Mormon, but I don't think either of them are infallible either, more like divinely inspired literature.

That's my take on it, but I value and respect your perspective.

[happy soul]

double post

[happy soul]

double post sorry

[Seawolf]

Originally Posted by happy soul

Vince,

When Jesus said, 'No man cometh to the Father except through Me,' He was probably simply mistaken. It's understandable that, being the messiah, He BELIEVED He was the ONLY way, but even prophets and messiahs make mistakes.

Or he was misquoted. Jesus could have gone to India and learned of his god connection, unity with god that we all have, and was simply misunderstood and his words changed and stories were made up.

It's strange I've come so far from the Christian beliefs I once had. It was like being in a cage. Not that Christiantiy can't be positive for people, but I think they need to be somewhat healthy emotionally to be able to draw the positives from it and be able to drop the unhealthy parts despite what anyone tells them.

Miracles happen all the time to non-Christians, and I would say they probably happen even more to them because most Christians are part of modern society now which doesn't allow much of the miraculous. But I may be wrong about that, there may be more Christians in non-modern society than I know of.

This whole worship of Jesus as god and us as dirt, pleading to gods for help hoping they'll pity us, believing in holy scriptures as infallible.. it's part of our sickness. Science is starting to understand humans better now though. As we learn about ourselves and heal our traumas.. we'll be less inclined to look outside ourselves for answers, to want to be controlled, to want to be told how to think, what to feel, what to believe.. because we'll know ourselves. We won't be terrified to feel our buried feelings.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by knightoflenity

I'm really surprised at how aggressive & arrogant some "western converts" to Buddhism are.

Oh yes the Buddhist section is always fighting.

I expect an authoritarian attitude from Abrahamic religions, there is a hierarchy in place from the get go but - especially on this forum - some western converts need to convince themselves as much as others that the new way is correct.

Yes the new way is the same as the old way, just following another authority.

I see it as them saying "I am spiritually superior & have finished the karmic cycle" inferring in various layers that the reader ... is not quite on their level.

I find it baffling that spiritual growth boils down to "my team is better than yours".

True, because when we name ourselves Christian, Buddhist or whatever, we separate one from the other into 'us' and 'them'.

This is why I don't subscribe to teams or labels.

The professional smart Alec's refer to it as "someone else's drama" - usurping the concept of the great game to again appear superior.

Mr Peterson refers to it as virtue signalling.

.

Good point.

[Raziel]

Originally Posted by Seawolf

Or he was misquoted.
This whole worship of Jesus as god and us as dirt, pleading to gods for help hoping they'll pity us, believing in holy scriptures as infallible.. it's part of our sickness. Science is starting to understand humans better now though. As we learn about ourselves and heal our traumas.. we'll be less inclined to look outside ourselves for answers, to want to be controlled, to want to be told how to think, what to feel, what to believe.. because we'll know ourselves. We won't be terrified to feel our buried feelings.

All good points to me.

I always wonder about how they account for every soul pre-Jesus. Were they automatically dammed or given free passes?

Writing off a chunk of people born before the big reveal is mean spirited surely.

Jesus has missing years, one theory is that he was a Dalai Lama but who knows.

Batman has a very complicated history yet he is never considered historically accurate - stories can have meaning even if untrue.

Originally Posted by knightoflenity

I always wonder about how they account for every soul pre-Jesus. Were they automatically dammed or given free passes?

Biblical-led historic research put the date of God's creation at around 4,004BC, which is around the same date as the Mayan Popul Vuh and the Enuma Elsih the Old Testament is based on - but Christianity will deny that vehemently.

Originally Posted by knightoflenity

Writing off a chunk of people born before the big reveal is mean spirited surely.

Ask Constantine because that was his idea.

Originally Posted by knightoflenity

Jesus has missing years, one theory is that he was a Dalai Lama but who knows.

Outside of the Bible Jesus doesn't exist, but then proof is relative to agenda and at the end of the day that's really what this whole thread is about. Supposedly the 'original Jesus' was a member of an ancient Egyptian Gnostic sect, but then he was also supposed to have been stolen from Mithras and a few others. He was also supposed to have been a Nazorean Essenne while others will say he was a Cathar. There is a rumour that he spent time with the Buddhists and it's been mooted that he was originally Buddhist and not Christian. He's also said to have been to Edinburgh in Scotland and spent time with the Druids.

Originally Posted by knightoflenity

Batman has a very complicated history yet he is never considered historically accurate - stories can have meaning even if untrue.

The stories only have the meaning people give them. The truth is relative to agenda and evidence is what supports that agenda - and logic is also relative to agenda. The OP for this thread is agenda-based, nothing more.

[SaturninePluto]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

The stories only have the meaning people give them. The truth is relative to agenda and evidence is what supports that agenda - and logic is also relative to agenda. The OP for this thread is agenda-based, nothing more.

Where you've said the OP for this thread is agenda based and nothing more, I am inclined to agree entirely, while adding that all other threads fall into that category of agenda based as well, including those of my own.

My reason is that is probably the statement closest to being of irrefutable in this entire thread. Of course that is only my opinion.

As for the actual thread topic? My thoughts?

Why cast pearls before swine?

Figuratively, of course.

[Ariaecheflame]

I'm an athiest and I'm the happiest person I know hahahahaha

Originally Posted by SaturninePluto

Originally Posted by Greenslade


Where you've said the OP for this thread is agenda based and nothing more, I am inclined to agree entirely, while adding that all other threads fall into that category of agenda based as well, including those of my own.

My reason is that is probably the statement closest to being of irrefutable in this entire thread. Of course that is only my opinion.

As for the actual thread topic? My thoughts?

Why cast pearls before swine?

Figuratively, of course.

Pearls are just irritations covered in oyster snot that have been given value, so this thread topic would count as a pearl in that respect. Who in their right mind values snot?? I suppose Vince thought the OP was a handful of pearls of wisdom but then it's all relative, religious discrimination (let's get trendily politically correct here) dressed as wisdom are the pearls that have been cast.