No Self

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by Self

Thank you for sharing NF.
I'm not so sure we can be or create anything we want without being predisposed in regards to what we want. I see our expression from relative nothingness, which by the way is not nothing, very much interrelated and interdependent on everything else, so much so so that it's hard to find a me in there LOL.
I took a lot away from this thread since it started and I am grateful to all who shared. Thank you

I couldn't quite see what you meant initially but now I see what you mean and I think I understand better.

The nothingness imo, gives way to everything/whole state/completeness so it becomes in my understanding a greater view of everything in that nothingness, even as what your saying fits my view also. Even as you let go of the me, the me in this view your hold, I see that you form many me's in the deepening into life as a whole. In my view, I am still being me and exist as me, but I am aware I exist as a whole movement of life, so it is not just about me. If I am open aware of it and embracing it as part of myself. The more, I open to life itself in the interconnected view in myself, the more life shows me what I am being and doing in life. In this regard I suppose you could say I let life lead me as an inclusive awareness, other wise I reject myself in part imo.

My wants and the greater wants are moved into a greater view of wants. So it becomes less about the "I" want and more about an inclusiveness/interconnectedness of all life moving as a greater want of life itself in me as that source. The me in this regard becomes less relevant because it is all me's/all life as one whole source moving itself in this awareness of "being". I still exist as my bit so I still move as myself. Being me doesn't change, but the purpose of me in this life might in this view I hold as a changeable momentary awareness, in the greater inclusiveness and awareness of all life. Looking at life more directly as myself in everyway life is in this view also.

[thebeautifulsacred]

Originally Posted by RyanWind

I can give my opinion based on my perception:

Nothingness is an idea. So it too is dropped.

What I am seeking has nothing to do with ideas, even ideas about what it is. It's just where I want to be, in this present moment, and what I want to be a part of now. Sometimes I read posts about these kinds of topics, not really referring to this one of yours, but everything in the post sounds right but I feel there is something missing or wrong. I usually come to the conclusion that what is wrong is there is too much self in the posts. You know like , I, I, I,.....
They might be saying, I am nothing, which sounds good, but the post is full of I. So much concern for what they are experiencing or not experiencing. So much concern about themselves.

It's not that I get rid of myself or find myself or become nothing... these are all ideas. It's just that I simply drop ideas. If you try to imagine what this is like, you end up with all kinds of false beliefs and thoughts and concepts about it. It is nothing, simple, not a big deal at all. It is just letting go of the mental world in each moment. Take a deep breath, give up everything, all the religion, spiritual teachings, ideas of needing to be something or become something, and just be free. Free from ideas from others and free from your own ideas.

It's not that we are seeking nothing, because nothing is an idea. We just be present now with nothing else. So the ideas of not existing etc come from thought imagining what it will be like. Really we find we have never been more fully there or here. Thought and ideas are just things we focus on, if we stop focusing on them, we are still here.

The "nothing" refers to what we are as far as what one is responding with or interacting with. This too doesn't happen overnight or instantly. I can let go of ideas and the mental world and just be present, but self as ideas and the mental world doesn't suddenly give up and go away. It still tries to make itself known and the center of our attention. While we may be able to put some aspects of it away quite easily, other parts still worm their way in there and pretend to not be there as anything besides ones self.

So it may be a long journey, but you keep at it. Lose it pick it up back again. Over time, you get better at staying present in the now while not identified with the mental conceptual world.

It really can be an impossible thing to communicate because in it, nothing, as ideas or teachings, is a part of it. But then there is a "knowing" or "knowledge" present in it which is non verbal yet known. My advice is don't worry about what it is or what you are. Just be. It you let go of ideas, you let go of needing to define or explain it anyway.

You don't go away or disappear or become nothing. It will never be anything other than you. The only thing that changes is what you hold onto as you in each moment.

Here is an example:

Say you walk into your kitchen and see a giant pile of dirty dishes and think, "sheesh what a mess, I don't want to wash all of this." Then you begin washing the dishes and have this general feeling of discontent because you are doing something you don't want to do. An fully enlightened person would not believe or accept any thoughts judging that activity. To them, it would make no difference if they were skiing down a mountain, laying by the pool sipping a cool drink, or doing those dishes. It would make absolutely no difference. The reason it would not make a difference to them is because conceptual thought is no longer what dictates their experience.

It may sound unbelievable but it is a fact that the only reason a person may prefer laying by the pool over washing dishes is because of a thought. A thought tells us it is true and we believe that thought. Some thoughts are very conditioned into us and hard to let go of and others not so much. So that's why I say it doesn't happen overnight. You get tastes of enlightenment, you do it in little steps. You learn to drop some ideas but not all ideas. It's a journey.

Something else that pops up when this subject is discussed is ideas of right and wrong. People think, oh if I don't pay attention to or believe any of my thoughts, then I can do anything I want. There is no right or wrong, This is also just an idea. This is assuming knowledge of right and wrong only comes from thought, and this is not true. Our very being has a code of ethics and morality, compassion and empathy, and really it is thought, that can reason away this base of knowledge so that we justify immoral behaviors. Our unconditioned self is a good, moral thing, and it is the self that is created by conditioning and thought, that leads to immorality.

Yes! Exactly!

[Within Silence]

Originally Posted by RyanWind

Here is an example:

Say you walk into your kitchen and see a giant pile of dirty dishes and think, "sheesh what a mess, I don't want to wash all of this." Then you begin washing the dishes and have this general feeling of discontent because you are doing something you don't want to do. An fully enlightened person would not believe or accept any thoughts judging that activity. To them, it would make no difference if they were skiing down a mountain, laying by the pool sipping a cool drink, or doing those dishes. It would make absolutely no difference. The reason it would not make a difference to them is because conceptual thought is no longer what dictates their experience.


It may sound unbelievable but it is a fact that the only reason a person may prefer laying by the pool over washing dishes is because of a thought. A thought tells us it is true and we believe that thought. Some thoughts are very conditioned into us and hard to let go of and others not so much. So that's why I say it doesn't happen overnight. You get tastes of enlightenment, you do it in little steps. You learn to drop some ideas but not all ideas. It's a journey.
.

This logic is flawed; sitting by the pool is not a thought, neither is washing the dishes, these are actions. The reason someone may enjoy laying by the pool over doing the dishes is because they simply enjoy it over washing the dishes, is this so difficult too see? It sounds like your "fully enlightened" person is the walking dead, a mindless zombie just getting through life without any enjoyments whatsoever. I understand that the conceptual thought that I like something is not the actual enjoyment of it, like reading the menu does not cause one to enjoy the taste of the food. But, it is not wrong to have enjoyments in life! It is not wrong to like this and dislike that, this is our freedom, and one also has the right to be indifferent to it all also. The thought that all conceptual thought is wrong is also a conceptual thought and so it is also wrong with this reasoning, it defeats itself.

And I guarantee that if the "fully enlightened" person walked into the kitchen and there was a giant man holding her daughter hostage with a knife to her throat, it would make a huge difference if the man slit her throat or not. You're examples may steer people in the wrong direction. This is not enlightenment, and if it was I would reject ever attaining it with every fiber of my being. You're attempting to remove what makes us human and unique. And I understand what you're trying to point to, but your example is not doing it justice. Just my two cents and I am not trying to cause a problem, but really look at what this example is saying.

Sometimes we need to wash the dishes, sometimes we sit by the pool, so what. If I dislike washing the dishes then I dislike it, so what.

[bees]

Originally Posted by RyanWind

Say you walk into your kitchen and see a giant pile of dirty dishes and think, "sheesh what a mess, I don't want to wash all of this." Then you begin washing the dishes and have this general feeling of discontent because you are doing something you don't want to do. An fully enlightened person would not believe or accept any thoughts judging that activity. To them, it would make no difference if they were skiing down a mountain, laying by the pool sipping a cool drink, or doing those dishes. It would make absolutely no difference. The reason it would not make a difference to them is because conceptual thought is no longer what dictates their experience.

This is not the Buddhist standard of enlightenment, fortunately.

[RyanWind]

Everyone seeks the same thing, a happy and fulfilling life. People just seek these goals in different ways. One person may be a hedonist and seek these things by selfishly seeking sensual pleasure all the time. Someone else may become a cloistered nun seeking happiness and fulfillment in that way of life. Someone may get married and have 12 kids. Someone else chooses to live alone in the woods with their dog. One person collects sports cars and owns hotels and another person becomes a monk and owns nothing. If it makes you happy, and doesn't harm others, nothing wrong with anyway of life. If you believe in karma or join a religion, you can add in other considerations such as helping others etc. If seeking to understand ones mind and thoughts doesn't make a person happier and a better person, then they should not pursue such things.

I would also add a heck of a lot of life is not a choice we have to make. Some people are born with mental or physical handicaps, some get abused, some have horrible traumatic things happen to them or people they love. So finding a path to be happy and content in life can be very difficult. Life is not easy that's for sure. That's one reason why some turn to religion and god, because they feel they can't make it on their own. Life is too overwhelming. One doesn't seek to be free of their mind and ego if everything is great and positive in their lives. The turn to these things because they find their thoughts and mind lead to conflict and suffering and so they seek to find a path to a better place, and to becoming a better person.

Remember that old song Imagine by John Lennon? Sometimes becoming less, makes you more.

[BlueSky]

Originally Posted by naturesflow

I couldn't quite see what you meant initially but now I see what you mean and I think I understand better.

The nothingness imo, gives way to everything/whole state/completeness so it becomes in my understanding a greater view of everything in that nothingness, even as what your saying fits my view also. Even as you let go of the me, the me in this view your hold, I see that you form many me's in the deepening into life as a whole. In my view, I am still being me and exist as me, but I am aware I exist as a whole movement of life, so it is not just about me. If I am open aware of it and embracing it as part of myself. The more, I open to life itself in the interconnected view in myself, the more life shows me what I am being and doing in life. In this regard I suppose you could say I let life lead me as an inclusive awareness, other wise I reject myself in part imo.

My wants and the greater wants are moved into a greater view of wants. So it becomes less about the "I" want and more about an inclusiveness/interconnectedness of all life moving as a greater want of life itself in me as that source. The me in this regard becomes less relevant because it is all me's/all life as one whole source moving itself in this awareness of "being". I still exist as my bit so I still move as myself. Being me doesn't change, but the purpose of me in this life might in this view I hold as a changeable momentary awareness, in the greater inclusiveness and awareness of all life. Looking at life more directly as myself in everyway life is in this view also.

Yes but I am suggesting that as the whole moves as myself, that it is a mistake to think myself is doing the moving. Myself is the movement. So what this means to me is that I can simply just trust the movements and thoughts and actions that come from me as not mine. I can see them as the whole moving and included in the movement as movement is the seeing as well. The seeing, the observing, the watching, the consciousness is not even personal, it's just the whole moving.

[BlueSky]

Originally Posted by RyanWind

Everyone seeks the same thing, a happy and fulfilling life. People just seek these goals in different ways. One person may be a hedonist and seek these things by selfishly seeking sensual pleasure all the time. Someone else may become a cloistered nun seeking happiness and fulfillment in that way of life. Someone may get married and have 12 kids. Someone else chooses to live alone in the woods with their dog. One person collects sports cars and owns hotels and another person becomes a monk and owns nothing. If it makes you happy, and doesn't harm others, nothing wrong with anyway of life. If you believe in karma or join a religion, you can add in other considerations such as helping others etc. If seeking to understand ones mind and thoughts doesn't make a person happier and a better person, then they should not pursue such things.

I would also add a heck of a lot of life is not a choice we have to make. Some people are born with mental or physical handicaps, some get abused, some have horrible traumatic things happen to them or people they love. So finding a path to be happy and content in life can be very difficult. Life is not easy that's for sure. That's one reason why some turn to religion and god, because they feel they can't make it on their own. Life is too overwhelming. One doesn't seek to be free of their mind and ego if everything is great and positive in their lives. The turn to these things because they find their thoughts and mind lead to conflict and suffering and so they seek to find a path to a better place, and to becoming a better person.

Remember that old song Imagine by John Lennon? Sometimes becoming less, makes you more.

I have come to see that every expression feels a pull towards that which it came from. That pull looks like many things, of which include seeking happiness but it's all just many ways to satisfy a natural movement towards our source. That's the goal, not happiness although it feels the same

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by Self

Yes but I am suggesting that as the whole moves as myself, that it is a mistake to think myself is doing the moving. Myself is the movement. So what this means to me is that I can simply just trust the movements and thoughts and actions that come from me as not mine. I can see them as the whole moving and included in the movement as movement is the seeing as well. The seeing, the observing, the watching, the consciousness is not even personal, it's just the whole moving.

The whole is the whole of life not just myself, I am included in the movement, so as my piece being me in all that, it serves the whole, so how I am in this world being myself as I am, will reflect into the whole movement of life where I can and cannot see in my movements.

I am not sure why you would think that your actions are not yours, when you are in the mix of all movement as is all life.

Personal responsibility for my own piece in the whole comes in to my actions and how I move, and how I move and what I receive is dependent upon what I share in those movements with all life. Life has shown me this and life goes on to build and deepen that awareness in myself. If I am open towards all life I would definitely be aware of my actions. If I am self absorbed and not attached to the welfare and affects I have on others and living more freely, then to me that shows an unwillingness to go deeper in reflection of myself.

Trust is a deepening through the allowing life to open you deeper into trust...life doesn't end while we are here, there is much we can deepen in trust of life in us. In this way I see that my actions are also a changing course as I deepen in myself and trust more so. While life is moving, I am moving with all that, how I move is how much I allow life to open me and reflect more fully immersed through all faculties we as humans hold within. Just because I am not my mind, doesn't mean the rest of myself is not engaged in the movement. If one is engaged more fully, one would be aware of how the whole body responds in the nature of trust of itself. Open state of being is aware of itself very much engaged and moving aware of itself open as open minded/body awareness..

[Squatchit]

Ryan - Earlier this week I meant to post in another thread that I enjoyed your words - you have a way of helping me understand the meanings by using everyday examples, such as washing pots and the like. I think it was in the other thread about 'bringing your own junk' to the room.

I don't want to appear to be taking sides, but now I've read this thread (and enjoyed your earlier post about the dishes), I thought it appropriate to let you know some "quieter" members are reading and enjoying your words, whilst not necessarily posting or getting involved in the discussion.

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by Within Silence

This logic is flawed; sitting by the pool is not a thought, neither is washing the dishes, these are actions. The reason someone may enjoy laying by the pool over doing the dishes is because they simply enjoy it over washing the dishes, is this so difficult too see? It sounds like your "fully enlightened" person is the walking dead, a mindless zombie just getting through life without any enjoyments whatsoever. I understand that the conceptual thought that I like something is not the actual enjoyment of it, like reading the menu does not cause one to enjoy the taste of the food. But, it is not wrong to have enjoyments in life! It is not wrong to like this and dislike that, this is our freedom, and one also has the right to be indifferent to it all also. The thought that all conceptual thought is wrong is also a conceptual thought and so it is also wrong with this reasoning, it defeats itself.

And I guarantee that if the "fully enlightened" person walked into the kitchen and there was a giant man holding her daughter hostage with a knife to her throat, it would make a huge difference if the man slit her throat or not. You're examples may steer people in the wrong direction. This is not enlightenment, and if it was I would reject ever attaining it with every fiber of my being. You're attempting to remove what makes us human and unique. And I understand what you're trying to point to, but your example is not doing it justice. Just my two cents and I am not trying to cause a problem, but really look at what this example is saying.

Sometimes we need to wash the dishes, sometimes we sit by the pool, so what. If I dislike washing the dishes then I dislike it, so what.

It is a limited perception offered, that is all as far as I can see. Where one is looking and we can look anywhere, where we see. Sometimes the seeing is limited, sometimes the relating is limited because the one looking is only looking in part. The issue in limitation of perception is that the one offering these kind of views, will often miss important aspects of the whole where they haven't fully opened to in themselves or because of age or even lack of direct experiences that haven't been experienced one with all the intellectual knowing. So for those aware of a greater measure of suffering and awareness of life and who have opened in themselves in this way, to build and deepen awareness, the limited perception noticed, becomes a more inclusive view and so the relating shows this. It is aware of itself more deeply. :)


Being fully present and seeing life as it is more directly allows one to build a less zombie like awareness with a deeper more compassionate inclusiveness of all life in that emptiness, plus we don't lose the body and all the sensory connections that we are..:) Living non attached doesn't mean you ignore what is moving through the whole, it is a willingness to look, reflect and understand that the movements of life flow through us all as a whole host/whole body state. The thread of life that binds us, binds us in everyway life is.. If I am not allowing the movements to flow through me and open to that in myself then It may signal I am not ready or willing to include that in my view and awareness building. I am not "seeing' that part yet. I am not open to that part in myself yet. I haven't built that as my inclusiveness in myself as the whole movement reflecting myself reflecting.

If you notice in this kind of view, it is only real in part and logically it makes no sense to the whole as people like yourself and myself can see and are aware of.

It would be in part because the mind has settled in this space unaware of itself attached to non attachment. "I am not my mind or thoughts" becomes the attachment. But still using the mind alone to acknowledge itself in this way. Where as non attachment is open minded and still allowing the self to immerse to open deeper. In this way of flowing with all life, if one is willing, there becomes a deepening and greater awareness of self moving as itself aware. So for me this is, open in myself in everyway I am, open mind, open to life and how I am moved in myself by life, building deeper awareness of all life as my own source in reflection of the whole. The heart and sensory data relating back to oneself when open to all life, complete a much more expanded way of being... WHOLE self engaged in the living experience, which naturally appears more real not a zombie detached to it's own logic.. :)


Life goes on. There is always more of life to reflect and show me myself deeper in this way of being.