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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Religions & Faiths > Buddhism

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  #61  
Old 28-02-2018, 04:08 PM
BlueSky BlueSky is offline
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Originally Posted by sky123
It seems to have been conducted over a period of 7 years and it must give some kind of hope to sufferers, hopefully.
What I saw was different. It was talking about lack of desires and depression being linked. I wasn't about a cure.
That's the part I was referring to.
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  #62  
Old 28-02-2018, 04:48 PM
Rain95 Rain95 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sky123
I don't identify with an animal body so my desires don't come from there

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Originally Posted by catsquotl
??
You mean the desire to eat when you are hungry, to drink when you are thirsty come from another source than your "animal" body?

If I were to slam a fork in your thigh over dinner. I bet your "animal" body would foster a myriad of desires and possible responses.

I wonder what percentage of our desires come from the body and it's mind and what percentage comes from our true self, consciousness. I would guess you need to be at 100% consciousness and 0% body to reach the ultimate enlightenment.

But yea do you like certain foods, sweets, sex. sensations....smells, tastes, touch, sounds (music), sights, (seeing nature/ sunsets)? Those are all pleasures of the body and so if you seek any of those, they are body pleasures and desires.

I guess somebody may say, my consciousness (true not body self) enjoys sunsets, music... on and on.... all body based pleasures. Well yea we are a consciousness here on earth in a human body having a great time right. Enjoying the pleasures of the body and this physical world. That's what reincarnation is about.

But then all body pleasure has a dark side and suffering.... eating so much you get illness, overweight, suffering..... seeking partners too much..cheating....breaking up families suffering....becoming addicted to various pleasures.... suffering.....even seeking spiritual pleasures can lead to conflict.... having some great spiritual experience then seeking it over all else....suffering....

What is the desire of only the consciousness, no body? To find the ultimate pleasure, the pleasure with no bad side, no suffering....which would be the divine... the source within..... to let go of all else...

I remember some guru told a disciple..... you can't have the divine if you have an ego.... you have left no room for the divine...the only way to realize the divine is to give up your very self....there is no other door into that state...

So eventually one seeks to seek no more or has the desire to have no more desires...

So they may desire to walk in silence and that would be walking meditation... staying alert and empty as the thoughts come then leave like clouds passing by.

The desire to be selfless... thus becoming the self that is not the body or influenced by the body.
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  #63  
Old 28-02-2018, 04:58 PM
Rain95 Rain95 is offline
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Oh I forgot I read music is created and enjoyed in the astral world.... um maybe hearing is not a body pleasure? I don't know. Some music is body pleasure related to emotions like anger etc that's for sure....it's terrible... so maybe music of a "higher" type is ok?.... music that reminds one of the divine?

I guess that's another question... can someone like Buddha enjoy body pleasures? While liberated and in nirvana? I really have no idea. Can you enjoy body sensations while totally detached from the body....

Maybe none of this has anything to do with the body.... maybe it is all mind related.... The thing preventing enlightenment is identifying with the mind of the body, not the body itself....so that would mean someone like Buddha could still experience the pleasures of the body, they would just do it without a sense of ego or a self....
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  #64  
Old 28-02-2018, 05:06 PM
sky123 sky123 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueSky
What I saw was different. It was talking about lack of desires and depression being linked. I wasn't about a cure.
That's the part I was referring to.


Crossed wires
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  #65  
Old 28-02-2018, 11:46 PM
ocean breeze ocean breeze is offline
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Originally Posted by Gem
I wasn't looking for answers when I wrote the OP. It's supposed to be an exploration, but we were given the answer in post # 2, and I thought we could all go home. But wait! Someone says it isn't the answer - something else is the answer - but I wonder if anyone is actually watching the mind as it grasps for 'the right answer'.

Perhaps reflecting back at ones own personal experiences would be more likely than seeking a one size fits all answer.

In my darkest moments desire and aversion occurred when suffering was already present not the other way around. But i can understand how desire can lead towards suffering.
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  #66  
Old 01-03-2018, 12:59 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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Originally Posted by ocean breeze
Perhaps reflecting back at ones own personal experiences would be more likely than seeking a one size fits all answer.

It's more to do with being conscious now than reflecting back, but there is also the transformation to wisdom that came from past experiences to draw on in our current lives.

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In my darkest moments desire and aversion occurred when suffering was already present not the other way around. But i can understand how desire can lead towards suffering.
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  #67  
Old 01-03-2018, 04:51 AM
Rain95 Rain95 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
It's more to do with being conscious now than reflecting back, but there is also the transformation to wisdom that came from past experiences to draw on in our current lives.

Well said. It's interesting to me that we are said to be connected to a source and so have "perfect" aspects to ourselves or source like qualities yet we are incomplete in some ways also thus, can learn. I wish there were expert "consciousness" scientists that could tell me what qualities and parts a consciousness has but to this day no scientist can even say what exactly a consciousness is or where it is or even if it survives the death of the body or not. It's pretty amazing with all modern science knows they can still not say exactly what consciousness is.

My guess about one aspect of consciousness is there are some "twin" like qualities that exist as energy in consciousness and exist physically in the human brain. Like memory. The brain stores memories physically so it exists there, but then after we die, it is said we can remember past lives, people we know and many other things so it seems consciousness also must have a memory. Not a physical one like the brain has that ends when the body does, but an energy based one. I'd say logically if consciousness can gain wisdom and learn and know things, it has to have a memory of some type. But it is different from the memory the brain has and uses.

Such an idea adds a lot of complexity to it all but then it all is probably a lot more advanced and complex than a human can understand. I think it's possible the human body and brain is somehow based on elements of consciousness and that's why we can merge with the body so easily. I would not be surprised if some things the body does, like think, know, learn, reason...exists in some form in consciousness as well. So we exist with physical mechanical forms of these at the same time energy forms of these things exist as us.

Maybe enlightenment is a form of discarding the physical based forms of these things so we are only perceiving from the energy forms of them.

Scientists can see physically in the brain where memories are stored and we know this "memory" is wiped when the body stops working.... so if we still know "who we are" after we leave the body it means consciousness also has it's own memory.
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  #68  
Old 01-03-2018, 08:47 AM
sky123 sky123 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rain95
Well said. It's interesting to me that we are said to be connected to a source and so have "perfect" aspects to ourselves or source like qualities yet we are incomplete in some ways also thus, can learn. I wish there were expert "consciousness" scientists that could tell me what qualities and parts a consciousness has but to this day no scientist can even say what exactly a consciousness is or where it is or even if it survives the death of the body or not. It's pretty amazing with all modern science knows they can still not say exactly what consciousness is.

My guess about one aspect of consciousness is there are some "twin" like qualities that exist as energy in consciousness and exist physically in the human brain. Like memory. The brain stores memories physically so it exists there, but then after we die, it is said we can remember past lives, people we know and many other things so it seems consciousness also must have a memory. Not a physical one like the brain has that ends when the body does, but an energy based one. I'd say logically if consciousness can gain wisdom and learn and know things, it has to have a memory of some type. But it is different from the memory the brain has and uses.

Such an idea adds a lot of complexity to it all but then it all is probably a lot more advanced and complex than a human can understand. I think it's possible the human body and brain is somehow based on elements of consciousness and that's why we can merge with the body so easily. I would not be surprised if some things the body does, like think, know, learn, reason...exists in some form in consciousness as well. So we exist with physical mechanical forms of these at the same time energy forms of these things exist as us.

Maybe enlightenment is a form of discarding the physical based forms of these things so we are only perceiving from the energy forms of them.

Scientists can see physically in the brain where memories are stored and we know this "memory" is wiped when the body stops working.... so if we still know "who we are" after we leave the body it means consciousness also has it's own memory.




Alaya-vijnana ( Storehouse consciousness ) might interest you
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  #69  
Old 01-03-2018, 09:46 AM
Shaunc Shaunc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
I think the second post said cause is aversion and desire.

To me it seems like things have been said before and we like to take them as answers and repeat them. I have heard all these same answers very many times.

The word Dukkha is one of those words that doesn't have a particular English translation because in Pali it means a wide range of things depending on the context it is used in. It's all important as a word only because of the religious significance the Buddhist religion gives it. When people say it means 'disatisfaction' they only repeat something they heard (probably read it on accesstoinsight or something like that). It's a fair enough way of understanding the word in relation to how our sense-experience is never really satisfying.

I wasn't looking for answers when I wrote the OP. It's supposed to be an exploration, but we were given the answer in post # 2, and I thought we could all go home. But wait! Someone says it isn't the answer - something else is the answer - but I wonder if anyone is actually watching the mind as it grasps for 'the right answer'.

Buddhism can be followed quite simply. Please note that I said simply and not easily, digging ditches is simple but anyone that's tried it knows it isn't easy.
Looking for deeper meanings and loopholes in the dharma isn't clever and intelligent behavior. Would anyone driving down the road wonder what people really meant when they came to a give way sign, or ponder the reason why it was placed there, or would the clever and intelligent thing be just to give way.
Spend a bit of time watching nature. The birds and the animals. They eat, sleep, exercise a little, mate and die.
I'm sure that most people could spend their time better than analysing the dharma. Just be grateful we found it and accept it for what it is.
Good luck and best wishes.
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  #70  
Old 01-03-2018, 10:14 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaunc
Buddhism can be followed quite simply. Please note that I said simply and not easily, digging ditches is simple but anyone that's tried it knows it isn't easy.
Looking for deeper meanings and loopholes in the dharma isn't clever and intelligent behavior. Would anyone driving down the road wonder what people really meant when they came to a give way sign, or ponder the reason why it was placed there, or would the clever and intelligent thing be just to give way.
Spend a bit of time watching nature. The birds and the animals. They eat, sleep, exercise a little, mate and die.
I'm sure that most people could spend their time better than analysing the dharma. Just be grateful we found it and accept it for what it is.
Good luck and best wishes.

It's not simple, it's just people don't appreciate nuance and complexity, but Buddhist philosophy is not understood in the same way as Western philosophy usually is. The Western approach is to intellectualise, create very clever and convincing arguments (I did philosophy courses at university so I get the drift), but Buddhist philosophy is understood by way of insight.

The key difference is, in my study of Western philosophy I was able to understand the concepts and the reasons behind making conclusions, but nothing happened to me as a person. The word 'philosophy' means the love of wisdom, but as my highly esteemed philosophy professor pointed out to me, what philosophers really love is reason. Of course - 'the enlightenment' period in the West is also known as 'the age of reason'.

I digress, but the difference with Buddhist philosophy is we can study it and know the texts back to front, just like I know so well the work of Michel Foucault, but in Buddhist philosophy, that intellectual understanding is regarded as a precursor at best, or perhaps as some sort of impetus for a person to become curious enough and find out for themselves if it is really true, and the way in which it true, not as they interpret it, but as they actually see it.

It is this real life seeing, the realisation, the insight... so its actually not important to know any texts. One need not ever have heard of Buddha or his particular teachings (which are things in texts). None of these religious tenets matter apart from serving as a curiosity of sorts.

The religion has gone astray forming different sects, revering icons, having special texts, rituals, wearing costumes and so forth. The fundamental meaning of 'buddha' is something like 'enlightened quality', which has nothing to do with any person. It's more like 'the truth of myself as I am', or something like that.

Then we have a particular kind of desire, which is completely ardent, yet has nothing to do with anything any individual might want. Of course what is true does not concern individuals' preferences. All this talk of desire, I want this and I want that, is a completely different pursuit for some sort of pleasurable sensation, but the truth concerns 'what is', and it's pretty obvious that 'what is' only exists 'just as it is' now.
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Last edited by Gem : 01-03-2018 at 11:27 AM.
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