What is real?

[Unseeking Seeker]

It would appear that each reality is a relative reality, an illusion for a higher reality but real for the consciousness resident therein. In other words, all is real, in that all is vibration. Our resonance with a particular frequency of vibration manifests that reality. To switch from one reality to another, we need to resonate at that frequency.

For example, take duality & singularity. With thoughts & senses externalised, which is the default setting of our in-form consciousness, reality is separateness. However, if we choose to resonate at what we may say, the divine-entwined frequency during deep, dissolved, prayerful meditation, our consciousness becomes one with the That Oneness ... pure, absolute, boundaryless awareness itself ... a singularity.

Duality ... real at a lower frequency and singularity real at a higher frequency. The difference however is, that the higher knows the lower, having ascended from lower to higher but the lower is oblivious of the higher.

***

[handy guy]

"Next follows the instruction about the Infinite with reference to the Self: The Self indeed, is below. It is above. It is behind. It is before. It is to the south. It is to the north. The Self, indeed, is all this.
"Verily, he who sees this, reflects on this and understands this delights in the Self sports with the Self, rejoices in the Self revels in the Self. Even while living in the body he becomes a self-ruler. He wields unlimited freedom in all the worlds. ‘‘But those who think differently from this have others for their rulers they live in perishable worlds. They have no freedom in all the worlds."

from the Chandogya...

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Agreed, it is all real, even intention, even thought. Why would intent and thought be anything other than real? As Miss H. quotes, "Nothing unreal exists." Much of this does have to do with semantics, as God-Like noted.

Hey ..

I would say it's more to do with the foundation of what we are in relation to being aware of a reality of sorts.

What is the relationship between what you are and the environment one is contemplating on as being real or unreal.

This is the foundational question one has to bear in mind when speaking of such notions.

If we have potentially a dream character known as you and I or a reflection or a shadow of Self experiencing a dreamy physical reality, then in my eyes all we have is a dreamy weamy character that is a reflection or a shadow representation of Self speaking about what is real or what is not.

This is the blind leading the blind ..

What I hear from time to time is that certain peeps are awakened to the dream reality and can say absolute truths and such likes ...

The thing is dream characters can't wake up from a dream because dream characters cannot be awake or asleep in the first instance.

A foundation that isn't real to begin with will only represent notions of the same ilk.

Such notions won't be worth anything no matter how grand and spiritual the words are and how grand and spiritual they sound.


x daz x

[Busby]

Originally Posted by ketzer

Of course I am in to quantum mechanics! How can one not be? It's all the rage you know. Much better than Ginko. All one needs to do is throw the word quantum around at a dinner party and everyone will think you are much smarter than you really are. The trick is to use it in ways that don’t really make any sense, then everybody else will think they are profoundly ignorant and won’t try to point out that you really have no idea what you are talking about. And if they do point out that you aren’t making any sense, you can just look at them and say, “Yeah, I feel your pain, I mean, like Feynman said, nobody really understands quantum mechanics.”

Very true. The moment QM appeared on the horizon a massive sigh of relief could be heard from the followers of esoteric philosophies. The problem of the eastern doctrine of the world being an illusion suddenly found a basis in those regions of sub-atom worlds where especially the concept of only the observer being really 'real' seemed to lift their spirits out of the quagmire of what to believe and so indicated a new direction where all manner of invisible worlds could be envisaged although the so keenly accepted information did, unfortunately, stem from those blasted scientists.

However science itself didn't find any connection to any metaphysical science, attempts at some sort of reconciliation failed miserably and should any physicist/biologist/astronomer indicate a possible reference to ancient or aged tenets their words are quickly removed from sight and hearing.

Science admits that it/we know nothing. 'We Have No Idea' is the title of a recent book on the basic findings of what we call the universe. At the moment there is no help to be had, there is nothing to even hint at the real mystery of life and existence - we'll have to wait a little bit longer.

For me personally there is a reality, when I bang my head against the table corner I know it hurts, knowing the the atoms are mainly space (and it's not at all clear what space is) doesn't lessen my pain.

So I'll stick with this: there are two things which exist of which I am certain, one is matter (as above) and the other is mind. You know, 'mind over matter' for me a real truth - we have not yet realised just what our minds are capable of. Aldous Huxley found a good description for the mind he called it/them 'The Doors of Perception'.

An ideal point to start thinking.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by John32241

Hi,

I find as I go through life, what is obvious to me is not as obvious to another. You could say that I look for a person's awareness level and gauge there potential for greater understanding. What is comprehendable for some is not for another.

I also apply this reasoning to myself. I look for those who have greater understanding on subjects of interest to me. My desire is then to learn from them. For in a very real way, we are all teacher and students.

Hugs,
John

John hello and that's a good observation and conclusion, both.
We can learn from everyone in some way.

I find it is particularly of interest, though, this step of taking ownership once there is a basic level of awareness. It is the launching point for each person's spiritual big bang. It is ultimately unavoidable. So I find it to be a fascinating thing, to see when it is that folks begin to expand outward and then coalesce in their own way.

But it doesn't happen at that immense level until you realise that you are what you are (I am that I am) in all "times" and all "places"...including what we call spiritual realms. There are no special exceptions. So when we bring a different presence or level of integrity to our day-to-day lives, it means we are still struggling with ownership of our awareness. And the hope is (IMO), our struggles are fruitful and begin to do more good and less damage to self and others as we go. Ownership of all that is also a part of it.

Peace & blessings
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by God-Like

Hey ..

I would say it's more to do with the foundation of what we are in relation to being aware of a reality of sorts.

What is the relationship between what you are and the environment one is contemplating on as being real or unreal.

This is the foundational question one has to bear in mind when speaking of such notions.

If we have potentially a dream character known as you and I or a reflection or a shadow of Self experiencing a dreamy physical reality, then in my eyes all we have is a dreamy weamy character that is a reflection or a shadow representation of Self speaking about what is real or what is not.

This is the blind leading the blind ..

What I hear from time to time is that certain peeps are awakened to the dream reality and can say absolute truths and such likes ...

The thing is dream characters can't wake up from a dream because dream characters cannot be awake or asleep in the first instance.

A foundation that isn't real to begin with will only represent notions of the same ilk.

Such notions won't be worth anything no matter how grand and spiritual the words are and how grand and spiritual they sound.


x daz x

Hey there Daz. I agree, I think this may be a whole other realm of discussion. I didn't realise you were specifically talking of this. I think it depends on the clarity of the dream state. If it is lucid, then awareness and presence are there, and you are "real" and responsible for what you say and do and intend and all that. That is the kicker, isn't it.

Of course, if it is not lucid, then you have no real control or even memory of that, and in that sense, you are not present or aware in any "real" sense. Meaning, IMO, you're not responsible for what you say or do when the hairy monster is chasing you down the street in your non-lucid dream.

Is that also the distinction you intended, or did I misunderstand?

Peace & blessings Teds
7L

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Hey there Daz. I agree, I think this may be a whole other realm of discussion. I didn't realise you were specifically talking of this. I think it depends on the clarity of the dream state. If it is lucid, then awareness and presence are there, and you are "real" and responsible for what you say and do and intend and all that. That is the kicker, isn't it.

Of course, if it is not lucid, then you have no real control or even memory of that, and in that sense, you are not present or aware in any "real" sense. Meaning, IMO, you're not responsible for what you say or do when the hairy monster is chasing you down the street in your non-lucid dream.

Is that also the distinction you intended, or did I misunderstand?

Peace & blessings Teds
7L

Hey

I have been speaking of the physical reality being dressed up as being a dream and not being actual / real.

So if a peep for examples sake wants to dress the physical reality up as a dream or not real then one must encompass being the dream character in reflection of their so called environment.

An actual dream character cannot awaken or be a sleep to the reality of the so called dream because there is nothing real that relates to the dream character to begin with.

A dream character cannot speak of absolute truths, or even know what is real, even if they are appearing to be a super duper guru type, for only a real individual can awaken or be asleep so to speak or know anything at all about reality so we have to get the foundation right to begin with. Have you ever heard of an unreal individual that actually knows that this reality is unreal lol. By what means would such an unreal individual have at their disposal to realize this or that about certain realities.

The mind experience? Is the mind real? If the mind isn't real then nothing mindful is real, it goes on and on in this respect ..

There in my eyes has to be a real foundation or not, then everything has to mirror that foundation to a certain extent.

In the lucid dream scenario one already has a real foundation of oneself as a real individual that knows that they are dreaming and the dream is known not to be the actual physical reality.

We eventually will have the comparison that's why at a point one wakes up and knows that they are no longer dreaming, if a peep just wants to say that the physical world is a dream then there must be a reality that they have experienced that is not a dream in order for them to say that / know that / realize that.

This is the dilemma for some because they don't have a real life / reality comparison to speak of.


x daz x

Originally Posted by handy guy

"Next follows the instruction about the Infinite with reference to the Self: The Self indeed, is below. It is above. It is behind. It is before. It is to the south. It is to the north. The Self, indeed, is all this.
"Verily, he who sees this, reflects on this and understands this delights in the Self sports with the Self, rejoices in the Self revels in the Self. Even while living in the body he becomes a self-ruler. He wields unlimited freedom in all the worlds. ‘‘But those who think differently from this have others for their rulers they live in perishable worlds. They have no freedom in all the worlds."

from the Chandogya...

Interesting, brings to mind the 3rd verse from the gospel of Thomas.

(3) Jesus said: If those who lead you say to you: See, the kingdom is in heaven, then the birds of the heaven will go before you; if they say to you: It is in the sea, then the fish will go before you. But the kingdom is within you, and it is outside of you. When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will know that you are the sons of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you are in poverty, and you are poverty.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by God-Like

Hey

I have been speaking of the physical reality being dressed up as being a dream and not being actual / real.

So if a peep for examples sake wants to dress the physical reality up as a dream or not real then one must encompass being the dream character in reflection of their so called environment.

An actual dream character cannot awaken or be a sleep to the reality of the so called dream because there is nothing real that relates to the dream character to begin with.

A dream character cannot speak of absolute truths, or even know what is real, even if they are appearing to be a super duper guru type, for only a real individual can awaken or be asleep so to speak or know anything at all about reality so we have to get the foundation right to begin with. Have you ever heard of an unreal individual that actually knows that this reality is unreal lol. By what means would such an unreal individual have at their disposal to realize this or that about certain realities.

Hey there Daz...I agree with what you're saying.
What's interesting how if we DON'T get dream sleep, we DO go mad, isn't it? What's equally interesting is how lucid dreaming is still an REM state but we get to be present for it and engage

The "real" person would go mad if he or she didn't dream...though I agree that the real person is NOT a dream ;) The real person is individuated consciousness manifest in a physical body/in the physical realm. These things all emanate from what some call spirit and what others call ultimate consciousness, which is about as real as it gets.

The mind experience? Is the mind real? If the mind isn't real then nothing mindful is real, it goes on and on in this respect ..

There in my eyes has to be a real foundation or not, then everything has to mirror that foundation to a certain extent.

In the lucid dream scenario one already has a real foundation of oneself as a real individual that knows that they are dreaming and the dream is known not to be the actual physical reality.

We eventually will have the comparison that's why at a point one wakes up and knows that they are no longer dreaming, if a peep just wants to say that the physical world is a dream then there must be a reality that they have experienced that is not a dream in order for them to say that / know that / realize that.

This is the dilemma for some because they don't have a real life / reality comparison to speak of.

x daz x

Yes all you say is true. What's interesting to me, in a sense, is how anyone could think that any of it -- any single piece of it -- is not real. As I see it, everything is real...every bit of it. Even the non-lucid dream we have is real in that it happens nightly (or we'd be bonkers)...it's only that our consciousness lacks agency and presence, so we are not liable for the mad screaming, arms and legs flailing, whilst the purple slime monster roams the neighbourhood ;)

I get that most folks mean "life is a dream" in the figurative sense only, meaning, most folks mean that we get caught up in illusion when we fail to see what is real. Which IMO is everything. Every single thing. The distinction between illusion and truth, or what many term "unreal" and "real", has only to do with awareness and ownership, as I see it.

As you refer to, it's when folks think that life really is a dream in the literal sense that we run into trouble. There is great power in the use of allegory and nuance...in stories and symbols and archetypes. Some loss of the ability to grasp allegory and nuance on the part of some may be at the root of this literal approach to figurative language.

That is, one may have a false (or, illusory) perception, in that it is misaligned with spirit. But it is the state of their reality in that moment to have that illusory perception. These folks are themselves still real, as are even their most fleeting or momentary intent, thought, word and deed. That may be a bit much for some to chew on...far easier to say, ah it's all a fantasy or a dream. Till awareness dawns, till awareness dawns...

Peace & blessings
7L

Originally Posted by Unseeking Seeker

It would appear that each reality is a relative reality, an illusion for a higher reality but real for the consciousness resident therein. In other words, all is real, in that all is vibration. Our resonance with a particular frequency of vibration manifests that reality. To switch from one reality to another, we need to resonate at that frequency.
***

Yes, I would agree.
This echos one of the insights of Einstein I was referring to earlier. Time and space are relative to the observer. We each have our own reality of what time and space are, and there is no absolute reference frame to judge any one as more true then the other.

Two observes will disagree on what is the right value of time, space, the order of events, yet both are right, both are real, both are true. Yet they do seem to be linked as the two can be brought into agreement in something called the spacetime interval.

And yes, all really is vibration. All the forms we see as "material" things are apparently just our consciousness interacting with the vibrations in the quantum fields. Fields that appear to be vibrating randomly, creating and destroying what can be thought of as "virtual particles of matter" at unimaginable rates. Like a radio or TV, we turn our dials, adjust our resonant frequency, and out from that random fluctuating field, into our consciousness, comes a reality, our reality.

Perhaps science then, does not tell us what is and is not real, but rather is an indicator of how much our resonant frequencies match, how similar are the realities that our receivers are rendering in our minds. Are fairies real? Perhaps that is entirely up to you and me. Perhaps we can disagree about what is "real", and we can both be right.