What are you meditating for?

Originally Posted by Argento

I think you can't get rid of conditioning, it's judging something as negative causes that you to want to de-condition. Can you forget that 2+2=4 even if you sit for 20 years in silence?

Maybe you can become aware that most of your conditioning has very little use in daily life.

Yes, indeed you can forget that 4+4=8, for example. In fact, literally, after studying maths for years, my mind easily shifts from 4+4=8 (decimal) to 4+4=10 (octal). How was this conditioning changed? Not from "concentrating REALLY REALLY REALLY HARD"... rather there were two steps:

1. Understand the mathematics that explain the different numeral systems
2. Even after we know this, years and years of primary, secondary and sometimes university education have still trained our minds to assume 4+4=8. Now we must de-condition and re-condition ourselves to not automatically assume out of habit that 4+4=8

In fact, as an analogy to spirituality, we can break people down into three sorts:
1. People who assume 4+4 is ALWAYS 8 (ignorant and ignorant of their ignorance)
2. People who know 4+4 is sometimes not 8, but make mistakes because they "revert" to solving the problem as though 4+4=8, even when it is in octal (where most spiritual seekers stand, myself included)
3. Those who know that the answer to "what is 4+4" depends on what base you are in AND are able to naturally adapt, depending on the problem that is being solved

I have gotten to the point in mathematics where, if someone writes that two numbers added equal something unexpected, I wonder what is being done with the numbers instead of immediately assuming that they "did it wrong". It would be nice to achieve that level of spirituality...

Likewise, though meditation, or other forms of reflection we come to understand the "mathematics of the self"... once we've understood this, we may know our conditioning is wrong (or at least, not the whole truth) but by recalling and reinforcing this knowledge over time, we can begin to recondition ourselves to knowledge that is perhaps more in sync with the way things truly are... As we come to higher levels of realization, this process happens again and again. This is the "refining" of which we speak.

Meditation is ultimately the scientific approach to spirituality. It isn't drawing logical conclusions... rather it is observing self, seeing where we are living unfulfilled and cultivating harmony in our hearts. The goal is not to dispense with meditation... rather, it is to have a sense of constant meditative awareness and observation of self and other even when we aren't sitting on a cushion with our eyes closed... we should be able to meditate in the midst of the fire of turmoil.

Also, a quick question for you: have you been able to destroy all of the turmoil in your heart just by choosing not to judge things as good or bad? If so, I feel like you should share your experience with all of us. For me, it has not been so simple thus far, so I think sharing your experience or story would help, even if there was no method. Was it "one day, I woke up and decided to stop judging circumstances as good or bad... and from that day forward I was free"? Short of that, I would say that "immediately abandoning opinion" is just talk from ancient books.

While this doesn't mean that we are revealing "absolute truths about the universe" by doing so, not being blinded by our own narrow mindset is ESSENTIAL to any understanding that we can achieve outside of meditation... Just like moving beyond the 4+4=8 mentality is a sign of progress in mathematics, so is moving beyond our current conditioning a sign of spiritual progress. As for whether we can ever reach the end of the journey, I'll end with a paraphrasing of a koan that I'm partial to:

One monk asked another how their spiritual journey was progressing. The monk who was questioned responded "I'm going to an unchanging place."

The monk who asked the question berated the monk, saying "How are you 'going' anywhere if the place is unchanging... Just accept the mind as is and you are there."

The other monk smiled and replied "The going is also unchanging."

-TaoSandwich

You didn't change your conditioning when you learned that 4+4=10
You added more conditioning on top...you still know it equals 8, and now 10 as well.

Do you not question the idea of spirituality? If not then that's not very open minded surely.

The monk in the story only became a monk because he followed another monk....and he never questioned it after he had a blissful experience. These blissful oneness experiences are very dangerous because after them, seekers don't question it anymore. They KNOW. Spooky.

"Also, a quick question for you: have you been able to destroy all of the turmoil in your heart just by choosing not to judge things as good or bad? If so, I feel like you should share your experience with all of us. For me, it has not been so simple thus far, so I think sharing your experience or story would help, even if there was no method. Was it "one day, I woke up and decided to stop judging circumstances as good or bad... and from that day forward I was free"? Short of that, I would say that "immediately abandoning opinion" is just talk from ancient books."

I'm not more awake or more advanced or more anything. I have not quelled the turmoil in my heart. If it is there, it is transient..Trying to quell it fuels it. I'm not giving you a technique either. No experience to share with you all and no abandoning opinions.
Maybe I'm not being clear enough. None of this

You ask me to share. There is nothing to share... But then again I AM on spiritualforums, haha! Oh the hypocrisy in me!

Maybe I'm in the same boat as you (I am).
Conditioning, de-conditioning, Tomayto, tomahto.

Earth&moonchild,

Just noticed your post there, sry for not replying sooner.

I have watched spiritscience on youtube along with a million other videos from a variety of sources. Studied and practised Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism etc etc.

Now it's time to drop our attachment to spirituality also.

Spirituality in all forms is happiness seeking. You want to be happy. Great!
Why do you want to be happy?

[VinceField]

Originally Posted by Argento

Spirituality in all forms is happiness seeking. You want to be happy. Great!
Why do you want to be happy?

The question isn't "Why do we want to be happy?" The desire for happiness is intrinsic to all sentient beings as far as the evidence shows.

The question is, "How can we become happy?"

Can you answer this question?

Relaxation and awareness techniques have been shown to work very well. So yes do it, but it's not meditation. I can't help myself

My favourite technique is to say, "eye map who" out loud ten times quickly. It sounds like, "I'm a poo." This will probably make you happy.

Originally Posted by Argento

You didn't change your conditioning when you learned that 4+4=10
You added more conditioning on top...you still know it equals 8, and now 10 as well.

Do you not question the idea of spirituality? If not then that's not very open minded surely.

I believe we are falling into semantics. Keep in mind that we should AGREE upon common definitions and then argue concepts. It is impossible to do these things justice with words, but unless either of us possess telepathic abilities, words are all we have, so let's try to understand each others' meanings behind the words instead of playing with the definitions.

I define conditioning as habitual attachment to a way of thought.

Believing that 4+4=10 or 4+4=8 is what I'd call simply more conditioning. Believing that 4+4= ... "well it depends" is what I'd call de-conditioning (as one is not irrationally attached to the notion of a particular solution and simply acts as required). When I'm doing a math problem, I'm not hindered by the thought of "4+4 is always 8"... but when I'm adding up cash to purchase my dinner, I'm not slowed by the possibility that "well, in octal, that isn't true". I act fluidly, according to what is required. That said, if a clerk is trying to add up your change and says "4+4... lets see what that equals" and you say "WELL, THAT DEPENDS." this is conditioning too... but more on this soon.

As for "spirituality", our difference is also semantic.

I define spirituality as the practice of inner seeking (or awareness if you prefer not to consider the concept of time) and clarification...

Given your definition and mine, I'd say that in my estimation, you ARE in fact meditating... and ARE in fact a spiritual seeker. Spirituality may manifest itself in ways that are blissful and appear "esoteric", or it may manifest itself in simple awareness of all, joy of living, etc. The permutations are endless. The only constant is clarification of that which watches and acts inside of us and how it connects with that which is outside of us. If one does everyday practices with inner seeking and clarification, this is spirituality. If one bows before Buddhas and God, meditates and does Tai-Chi without inner seeking/awareness and clarification, this is not spirituality. However, this doesn't mean that practices/rituals are bad and everyday actions are good!

In order to truly be spiritual, one must question the idea of spirituality every day and not let your mind stick to an idea. In fact, I am just trying to point out that just like holding a rigid idea of "spirituality" or "conditioning" can be diseases of the mind, so are the ideas of "there is no teaching" or "there is no conditioning". If you stick to the first, you are conditioned by conditioning. If you stick to the second, you are conditioned by "no conditioning"! Both are equally misguided.

In fact, if accepting conditioning is the path, then you should probably let those who are conditioned to believe they can remove conditioning keep that conditioning. By that way of thinking, there is no reason to get rid of it!

-TaoSandwich

Haha! You caught me

[skygazer]

Originally Posted by Argento

My favourite technique is to say, "eye map who" out loud ten times quickly. It sounds like, "I'm a poo." This will probably make you happy.

you have no technique, Argento, remember?

[VinceField]

Originally Posted by Argento

Relaxation and awareness techniques have been shown to work very well. So yes do it, but it's not meditation. I can't help myself

Well, firstly, anything falling under the definition of "meditation" is meditation, regardless of what your idiosyncratic views on the subject are.

Meditation is a practice in which an individual trains the mind or induces a mode of consciousness, either to realize some benefit or for the mind to simply acknowledge its content without becoming identified with that content,[1] or as an end in itself.[2]

The term meditation refers to a broad variety of practices (much like the term sports) that includes techniques designed to promote relaxation, build internal energy or life force (qi, ki, prana, etc.) and develop compassion,[3] love, patience, generosity and forgiveness. A particularly ambitious form of meditation aims at effortlessly sustained single-pointed concentration[4] meant to enable its practitioner to enjoy an indestructible sense of well-being while engaging in any life activity.

In brief, there are dozens of specific styles of meditation practice, and many different types of activity commonly referred to as meditative practices.[11]

So, in your opinion, relaxation and heightened awareness is the source of happiness?

I believe you are missing something big.

What if the person's mind is full of hatred, or obsessive attachment, or complete delusion? How will relaxation and heightened awareness bring them happiness? That was a rhetorical question. Relaxation and awareness practices may be a step in the right direction, but there is much more to cultivating true states of happiness and eliminating the mind's defilements than just those. Relaxation and awareness alone will not remedy these burdens of the mind.

Telling people to stop meditating and then offering them no good alternative to tackle the problems in their mind and find a more stable and unconditioned source of happiness is quite irresponsible. Ironically, it displays a lack of wisdom that arises from an effective meditation practice. And you've been meditating for how long? (Another rhetorical question)

Anyway, I hope you find happiness, and I also hope you help others to do the same. A good start would be to stop misleading this community with your anti-meditation campaign. If you can refute any of the points I've made to defend your position then be my guest, but you have yet to do so, and otherwise I believe I've effectively rendered your position invalid throughout this discussion.