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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Non Duality

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  #1  
Old 29-11-2017, 11:04 AM
Iamit Iamit is offline
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Neo Advaita (NA)

How TA may be helpful to seekers to end the search has been covered extensively in recent posts. So that there can be a comparison for seekers the following is a summary of how NA may be helpful to some seekers to end a feeling of disconnection from Oneness as the only reality, or whatever label may be applied to the totality without distinction or discrimination.

1) It may be that the popularity of NA in the West rather than TA reflects the different traditions between East and West. The West is more thought based around thinking about ideas and concepts. So the Western mind may find concept/ideas based NA more suitable and see thinking and mind in general as an asset rather than a hindrance. Mind may even be seen as what resonates with a solution to the search for the particular character it serves. After all it is mind that gathers the data for the search so it would not be surprising if it was mind that resonates with what is regarded as a suitable solution for the particular character. That mind has the ability to resonate as well as think would not be surprising.

2) Characters vary. Some may be successful at doing something to solve problems and have the discipline necessary to work at that. Knowing this mind may select a path and/or practise for such characters. Others may not be so successful so mind may resonate with a solution that requires very little or nothing to be done to end the search. To think that the latter are eliminated from ending the search is to condemn them to the spiritual wilderness by dismissing their experience of resonance as useless. Those taking that view are not the ones having that experience and can not know what that experience is like for the other experiencing it.

Both TA or NA may be appropriate depending on the character of seekers, who should not be put of consideration of either by attempts to smear/undermine the other.

Good luck.
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  #2  
Old 29-11-2017, 11:23 AM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamit
How TA may be helpful to seekers to end the search has been covered extensively in recent posts. So that there can be a comparison for seekers the following is a summary of how NA may be helpful to some seekers to end a feeling of disconnection from Oneness as the only reality, or whatever label may be applied to the totality without distinction or discrimination.

1) It may be that the popularity of NA in the West rather than TA reflects the different traditions between East and West. The West is more thought based around thinking about ideas and concepts. So the Western mind may find concept based NA more suitable and see thinking and mind in general as an asset rather than a hindrance. Mind may even be seen as what resonates with a solution to the search for the particular character it serves. After all it is mind that gathers the data for the search so it would not be surprising if it was mind that resonates with what is regarded as a suitable solution for the particular character.

2) Characters vary. Some may be successful at doing something to solve problems and have the discipline necessary to work at that. Knowing this mind may select a path and/or practise for such characters. Others may not be so successful so mind may resonate with a solution that requires very little or nothing to be done to end the search. To think that such characters are eliminated is to condemn them to the spiritual wilderness by dismissing their experience of resonance as useless.
Exactly true.

If you believe that you are the mind and that the mind can realise itself and literally 'think' its way to enlightenment, then NA is an excellent tool to help you get there (wherever 'there' is for the NA adherent).

Yes, the Western mind is more "thought based around thinking about ideas and concepts. So the Western mind may find concept based NA more suitable and see thinking and mind in general as an asset rather than a hindrance."

However, it is the whole premise of Advaita (Neo or otherwise) to go beyond these thoughts, the whole thinking process and all those false conceptualisations which only pander to the ego to keep the seeker 'stuck in the mind' which doesn't really get them anywhere.

Having said that, if it works for you and if you have attained this 'Oneness' through using your mind and just thinking that you have, brilliant! ...but please realise, this path is for you...even if, according to your own philosophy, any notion of 'you' does not exist and if any notion of 'you' does not exist, that must also include 'your' mind, right?

Still, it's 'horses for courses' and if you are totally happy, satisfied and could want nothing more than what you have found, I am totally happy for you.

It is not for me, but then again, Traditional Advaita isn't for me either (even though I toe that line)...I am a Shiva Bhakta...nothing more or less than that.

Om Namah Shivaya
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  #3  
Old 29-11-2017, 12:30 PM
Iamit Iamit is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shivani Devi
Exactly true.

If you believe that you are the mind and that the mind can realise itself and literally 'think' its way to enlightenment, then NA is an excellent tool to help you get there (wherever 'there' is for the NA adherent).

Yes, the Western mind is more "thought based around thinking about ideas and concepts. So the Western mind may find concept based NA more suitable and see thinking and mind in general as an asset rather than a hindrance."

However, it is the whole premise of Advaita (Neo or otherwise) to go beyond these thoughts, the whole thinking process and all those false conceptualisations which only pander to the ego to keep the seeker 'stuck in the mind' which doesn't really get them anywhere.

Having said that, if it works for you and if you have attained this 'Oneness' through using your mind and just thinking that you have, brilliant! ...but please realise, this path is for you...even if, according to your own philosophy, any notion of 'you' does not exist and if any notion of 'you' does not exist, that must also include 'your' mind, right?

Still, it's 'horses for courses' and if you are totally happy, satisfied and could want nothing more than what you have found, I am totally happy for you.

It is not for me, but then again, Traditional Advaita isn't for me either (even though I toe that line)...I am a Shiva Bhakta...nothing more or less than that.

Om Namah Shivaya

Hello again and welcome back,

Agreed except I suggest that resonance is not thinking (see meaning of the word to do with frequency and vibration). I am suggesting that mind has the ability to resonate. I have no more evidence for this other than it is the mind that seeks out and considers possible solutions to the spiritual search and is right there looking at those solutions to resonate with them.

On a separate matter, from your studies is there a view concerning balance within the manifestation and is it regarded to be on the infinate scale?
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  #4  
Old 29-11-2017, 12:47 PM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamit
Hello again and welcome back,

Agreed except I suggest that resonance is not thinking (see meaning of the word to do with frequency and vibration). I am suggesting that mind has the ability to resonate. I have no more evidence for this other than it is the mind that seeks out and considers possible solutions to the spiritual search and is right there looking at those solutions to resonate with them.

From your studies is there a view concerning balance within the manifestation and is it regarded to be on the infinate scale?
According to my studies, the mind is still part of the ego and any 'balance' is still part of the duality, because it must have equal proportions attributed on either side of the equation.

In fact, I am a huge Nikola Tesla fan and as well as frequency and vibration, there also must be energy...these three things will help you understand the nature of the universe, but 'understanding' something and 'realising Oneness' are two different things.

To realise Oneness, is to understand that nothing exists which is not Oneness.

You also make the distinction between Western and Eastern, between Yourself and Other, between Mind and Body and between TA and NA...nearly every concept is an exposition on duality, when you follow a Non-dual philosophy. This is a contradiction.

To a true Advaitin, even 'Brahman' or 'Oneness' doesn't exist because the mind cannot go there and no words can describe what it IS, which means it's beyond the mental scope of language to translate it into a concept even for another to be able to understand it through their mind.

According to my beliefs/studies, the human being is made up of five sheaths...the physical body (annamaya kosha), the mind/mental sphere (manomaya kosha) the etheric sheath/astral body (pranamaya kosha), the intuitive and empathetic sheath (Vijnamaya kosha) and the bliss sheath (anadamaya kosha)...in the centre of all, is Atman or Brahman...here's an article on it:

http://www.intuitiveflow.com/the-fiv...-pancha-kosha/

The mental sheath is totally separate from Atman/Brahman and the nature of Brahman (Atman) and the nature of Paramatman (that which is beyond the 5 sheaths) can only be experienced through the anadamaya kosha or the 'bliss sheath' and not through the manomaya kosha or the mind/mental sheath...this is why I say what I do about it.
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  #5  
Old 29-11-2017, 05:59 PM
Iamit Iamit is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shivani Devi
According to my studies, the mind is still part of the ego and any 'balance' is still part of the duality, because it must have equal proportions attributed on either side of the equation.

In fact, I am a huge Nikola Tesla fan and as well as frequency and vibration, there also must be energy...these three things will help you understand the nature of the universe, but 'understanding' something and 'realising Oneness' are two different things.

To realise Oneness, is to understand that nothing exists which is not Oneness.

When I use the word Oneness it is not meant to indicate some sort of entity but rather that despite the very convincing appearance of difference, All is in reality, One. So despite being singular is also the totality of difference we call duality. Does this clear up the matter of whether it exists or not from your knowledge?

You also make the distinction between Western and Eastern, between Yourself and Other, between Mind and Body and between TA and NA...nearly every concept is an exposition on duality, when you follow a Non-dual philosophy. This is a contradiction.

To a true Advaitin, even 'Brahman' or 'Oneness' doesn't exist because the mind cannot go there and no words can describe what it IS, which means it's beyond the mental scope of language to translate it into a concept even for another to be able to understand it through their mind.

According to my beliefs/studies, the human being is made up of five sheaths...the physical body (annamaya kosha), the mind/mental sphere (manomaya kosha) the etheric sheath/astral body (pranamaya kosha), the intuitive and empathetic sheath (Vijnamaya kosha) and the bliss sheath (anadamaya kosha)...in the centre of all, is Atman or Brahman...here's an article on it:

http://www.intuitiveflow.com/the-fiv...-pancha-kosha/

The mental sheath is totally separate from Atman/Brahman and the nature of Brahman (Atman) and the nature of Paramatman (that which is beyond the 5 sheaths) can only be experienced through the anadamaya kosha or the 'bliss sheath' and not through the manomaya kosha or the mind/mental sheath...this is why I say what I do about it.

When I use the term "Oneness" I am not referring to some sort of entity but rather that despite the very convincing appearance of difference, All is One. Meaning Oneness is the only reality and all else is the appearance of difference where there is no difference whatsoever.

Yes indeed I am talking about duality when I use the words "manifestation" and "balance" so is there anything from your studies which refers to a mechanism that is present in duality which balances duality? I would be interested to know if there is any reference to this sort of thing from your studies.

Concerning what you call the mental sheath. Again from your studies is there anything else real, other than Oneness/Brahman, available to manifest as the mental sheath? If so what is that?
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  #6  
Old 29-11-2017, 08:32 PM
blossomingtree blossomingtree is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamit
How TA may be helpful to seekers to end the search has been covered extensively in recent posts. So that there can be a comparison for seekers the following is a summary of how NA may be helpful to some seekers to end a feeling of disconnection from Oneness as the only reality, or whatever label may be applied to the totality without distinction or discrimination.

1) It may be that the popularity of NA in the West rather than TA reflects the different traditions between East and West. The West is more thought based around thinking about ideas and concepts. So the Western mind may find concept/ideas based NA more suitable and see thinking and mind in general as an asset rather than a hindrance. Mind may even be seen as what resonates with a solution to the search for the particular character it serves. After all it is mind that gathers the data for the search so it would not be surprising if it was mind that resonates with what is regarded as a suitable solution for the particular character. That mind has the ability to resonate as well as think would not be surprising.

2) Characters vary. Some may be successful at doing something to solve problems and have the discipline necessary to work at that. Knowing this mind may select a path and/or practise for such characters. Others may not be so successful so mind may resonate with a solution that requires very little or nothing to be done to end the search. To think that the latter are eliminated from ending the search is to condemn them to the spiritual wilderness by dismissing their experience of resonance as useless. Those taking that view are not the ones having that experience and can not know what that experience is like for the other experiencing it.

Both TA or NA may be appropriate depending on the character of seekers, who should not be put of consideration of either by attempts to smear/undermine the other.

Good luck.

Hopefully this time this thread can stay on topic instead of trying to shut down discussion by crying wolf

Here is a post that is related to your OP, I think it is very worthwhile to keep examining the issues at hand:

I think to imagine that it is a West v East or TA v NA issue or Traditionalist v Modern context is incorrect, and merely takes the bait {sort of like the #fakenews #alternativefacts context - there are no alternative facts, period, to discuss it is to acknowledge that which isn't accurate in the first place, a clever play}

This is certainly not an issue of West or East or Traditional Advaita-Vedanta v Neo-Advaita or popularity more v less.

To imagine it is is to have taken that particular bait, in my opinion. The key, fundamental difference is really are the teachings as promulgated genuine and fulsome spiritual teachings or not? i.e. Do they advance the highest teachings/Truths found in a number of religions: Buddhism, Sufism, Advaita-Vedanta, mystical Christianity, Daoism etc.

There is no mindset of popularity, culture or religion here, IMO. You have to remember that Advaita-Vedanta and many other religions co-exist very peacefully and harmoniously; some would say co-operatively too - you help him and I will help her and we will meet at the same place out there, beyond these categories - high five!

The only reason that this so called Neo-Advaita issue is being responded to is because it is simply a shallow imitation of any genuine spiritual tradition, and it is baited to attract the simple minded, ignorant, or those that just don't know, and yet are {sincerely} looking for some spiritual guidance. Unfortunately its effects range from long term ignorance (given that it does not actually generate meaningful deep insights) to more corruption (such as when some people think that they don't, or perhaps other people, don't 'really' exist, and/or All is One anyway so 'whatever' I do is fine) i.e. the mental cognition of the insight of genuine teachers cannot help but be nigh inevitably corrupted in its original intention.

You see, what is so tricky and pseudo-smart about the so-called NA writings is that they utilize some "truths" discovered in (let's use for this example) Advaita-Vedanta, and also piggy back off the same terminology. So, to the untrained eye and heart, it has semblances of truth in it.

To piggy back off Jyotir's example of Paris, they describe the sights of the Eiffel Tower (having piggy backed off of the travellers' actual journey) using similar words, they can describe the bridges, the people, the vibrant taste of its cuisine {mmm croissants!!} and so parts of it could be true {if it were really true}.

But this remains very different to the actual reaching of said destination, which is what the original Adepts did reach and used words to "hint at" and best {within the capacity of words, which is inherently limited} provide a flavor of the possible.

Furthermore, it goes beyond a trip in that the transformation and journey cannot help but change the individual - sort of like the characteristics of a genuine pilgrim, who is forged in and through the fires of Truth/Search - there is a distinctively different taste and flavor in such people experientially and also through their insights and spiritual development.

As you know the spiritual tradition is nothing but a journey back to Source (which no-one has left, but which still requires some effort to deeply realize and manifest).

Neo-Advaita is nothing but a forgery in that regard, stunting the very people it could have helped, by promulgating views such as there is nothing to do, nothing to realize. By short-circuiting the very search, journey and practice that leads people to these inner realizations and experiences, it belies the very intention, depth and authenticity of the original Adepts/Masters' sharings.

In Zen there is a saying: "Before one studies Zen, mountains are mountains and waters are waters; after a first glimpse into the truth of Zen, mountains are no longer mountains and waters are no longer waters; after enlightenment, mountains are once again mountains and waters once again waters."

No-one in Zen graduates without years of intensive practice, lifelong practice and yet the destination is inevitably sweet because the realizations are the fruition of the work that was put in.

Finally, Iamit's own discourse shows another level of conceit in that it attracts people who are "tired of being told they are not good enough". It suits personalities who are perhaps tired and older and want to feel that things are enough. I definitely sympathize with that, and wish such people well. There is no need for anyone to feel unworthy and I also have never seen that message in any other tradition - but people obviously interpret messages differently. Iamit also mentioned suffering still exists - well, compare that to the Adepts

So anyway, in conclusion, the classification and context of discussion is not a "versus" - whether that's people, culture, modernity, or religion, as Iamx would like to put it, it's a simple case of fraudulent activity masking as the real deal. That is the pertinent point and pivot of discussion. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but at least people deserve to know - hey this ain't Europe!

BT


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  #7  
Old 29-11-2017, 08:34 PM
blossomingtree blossomingtree is offline
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Related (duplicate) threads:

Seeking Agreement
Non-Duality and the Guru
Tradition and the supposed Resistance to change
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  #8  
Old 30-11-2017, 12:52 AM
Iamit Iamit is offline
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Both TA or NA may be appropriate depending on the character of seekers, who should not be put off consideration of either by attempts to smear/undermine the other
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  #9  
Old 30-11-2017, 03:44 AM
blossomingtree blossomingtree is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamit
Both TA or NA may be appropriate depending on the character of seekers, who should not be put off consideration of either by attempts to smear/undermine the other


http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...98&postcount=7

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...&postcount=110

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...4&postcount=73

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...1&postcount=43

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...5&postcount=38

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...9&postcount=68

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...8&postcount=51

etc.

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...d.php?t=118554
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  #10  
Old 30-11-2017, 05:01 PM
Iamit Iamit is offline
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This reminds me of authoritarians who harrass others they consider to be deviant in some way, by insisting that individual choice is secondary to a preferred system, in this case TA.

Dont let them grind you down brothers and sisters and if you can be bothered stand up against them for individual choice where ever they attempt to suppress you with thier smears. Or they will take over the world and us mamby pamby liberals will be the first to the wall. Maybe its too late. Maybe they have already taken over. Certainly seems so here.

:):):)
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