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  #11  
Old 06-01-2018, 10:49 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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I think Nis sums up his approach here
try to feel what it means to be, just to be, without being 'this' or 'that'. All our habits go against it and the task of fighting them is long and hard sometimes, but clear understanding helps a lot. The clearer you understand that on the level of the mind you can be described in negative terms only, the quicker you will come to the end of your search and realise your limitless being.
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  #12  
Old 06-01-2018, 03:51 PM
davidsun davidsun is offline
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Here is a quote from Chapter 7 of The Bhagavad Gita (translation by Shri Purohit Swami) which rang some bells in my head pertaining to who or what the "I" in "I Am THAT" may reference.

SEVEN: KNOWLEDGE AND EXPERIENCE

Lord Shri Krishna said: Listen, O Arjuna! And I will tell thee how thou shalt know Me in my Full perfection, practising meditation with thy mind devoted to Me, and having Me for thy refuge.

I will reveal to this knowledge unto thee, and how it may be realised; which, once accomplished, there remains nothing else worth having in this life.

Among thousands of men scarcely one strives for perfection, and even amongst those who gain occult powers, perchance but one knows me in truth.

Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intellect and personality; this is the eightfold division of My Manifested Nature.

This is My inferior Nature; but distinct from this, O Valiant One, know thou that my Superior Nature is the very Life which sustains the universe.

It is the womb of all being; for I am He by Whom the worlds were created and shall be dissolved.

O Arjuna! There is nothing higher than Me; all is strung upon Me as rows of pearls upon a thread.

O Arjuna! I am the Fluidity in water, the Light in the sun and in the moon. I am the mystic syllable Om in the Vedic scriptures, the Sound in ether, the Virility in man.

I am the Fragrance of earth, the Brilliance of fire. I am the Life Force in all beings, and I am the Austerity of the ascetics.

Know, O Arjuna, that I am the eternal Seed of being; I am the Intelligence of the intelligent, the Splendour of the resplendent.

I am the Strength of the strong, of them who are free from attachment and desire; and, O Arjuna, I am the Desire for righteousness.

Whatever be the nature of their life, whether it be pure or passionate or ignorant, they are all derived from Me. They are in Me, but I am not in them.

The inhabitants of the world, misled by those natures which the Qualities have engendered, know not that I am higher than them all, and that I do not change.

Verily, this Divine Illusion of Phenomenon manifesting itself in the Qualities is difficult to surmount. Only they who devote themselves to Me and to Me alone can accomplish it.

The sinner, the ignorant, the vile, deprived of spiritual perception by the glamour of Illusion, and he who pursues a godless life – none of them shall find Me.
O Arjuna! The righteous who worship Me are grouped by stages: first, they who suffer, next they who desire knowledge, then they who thirst after truth, and lastly they who attain wisdom.

Of all of these, he who has gained wisdom, who meditates on Me without ceasing, devoting himself only to Me, he is the best; for by the wise man I am exceedingly beloved and the wise man, too, is beloved by Me.

Noble-minded are they all, but the wise man I hold as my own Self; for he, remaining always at peace with Me, makes me his final goal.

After many lives, at last the wise man realises Me as I am. A man so enlightened that he sees God everywhere is very difficult to find.

They in whom wisdom is obscured by one desire or the other, worship the lesser Powers, practising many rites which vary according to their temperaments.

But whatever the form of worship, if the devotee have faith, then upon his faith in that worship do I set My own seal.

If he worships one form alone with real faith, then shall his desires be fulfilled through that only; for thus have I ordained.

The fruit that comes to men of limited insight is, after all, finite. They who worship the Lower Powers attain them; but those who worship Me come unto Me alone.

The ignorant think of Me, who am the Unmanifested Spirit, as if I were really in human form. They do not understand that My Superior Nature is changeless and most excellent.”
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  #13  
Old 07-01-2018, 09:19 AM
Iamit Iamit is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
Hello,

Here is a PDF of Nisargadatta's 'I am That'

http://www.freespiritualebooks.com/u.../i-am-that.pdf

I think this statement sums up Nasargadatta's approach:
How do you find a thing you have mislaid or forgotten? You keep it in your mind until you recall it. The sense of being, of 'I am' is the first to emerge. Ask yourself whence it comes, or just watch it quietly. When the mind stays in the 'I am' without moving, you enter a state which cannot be verbalised but can be experienced. All you need to do is try and try again. After all the sense ‘I am’ is always with you, only you have attached all kinds of things to it -- body, feelings, thoughts, ideas, possessions etc. All these self-identifications are misleading. Because of them you take yourself to be what you are not

(you can do a word search to find it in the pdf text - the pdf has no page numbers I can reference)

I hope we can discuss the meanings presented in the book rationally and become the wiser so doing.

Cheers, and I look forward to talking with you.

N seems to vary his response between practise required and the direct approach, depending on where he percieves the questioner to be at, which is what you would expect from someone who understands that seekers vary in terms of where they are at. A friend has borrowed my copy and I wonder if there is a way fo finding the very clear example of where he uses the direct approach with one guy in particular who is completely in despair and N describes that as a most beneficial state. The chapter and page number would be great, or post the conversation here.
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  #14  
Old 07-01-2018, 10:15 AM
naturesflow naturesflow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
I think Nis sums up his approach here
try to feel what it means to be, just to be, without being 'this' or 'that'. All our habits go against it and the task of fighting them is long and hard sometimes, but clear understanding helps a lot. The clearer you understand that on the level of the mind you can be described in negative terms only, the quicker you will come to the end of your search and realise your limitless being.


Limitless and with infinite possibilities. I know you like nature so you might enjoy this little Gem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJYwR6WiXfM
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  #15  
Old 07-01-2018, 10:30 AM
naturesflow naturesflow is offline
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[QUOTE Gem]Yes I think that's the gist of it in the general sense, but there is the specific aspect of staying with I AM, which I take to mean your constant presence.[/quote]

Ok I understand now.



Quote:
Yes, that would be ideal, because it is quite an indepth talk from the advaita ND perspective.







Quote:
Oh right, that sounds like a good idea. Can you give an example of such an affirmation?

Well it was a long time ago now in the depth of my own conditioning, but ultimately things like this. I am worthy and respected by all those in my world or I am in trust of my life and process, I accept myself as I am. The list is endless really.

Through those years I actually shifted the old conditioned patterns by staying focused on the new affirming mindset. My body naturally went into a release and shift right through the whole sensation, energy and emotional body clearing quite often. I always knew when the fear was being released as my body would shake uncontrollably and then I knew it was out of me more complete.





Quote:
Yes, so its a process of dissolving in that pure conscious awareness.

Yes I understand.



Quote:
Yes same here. I'm no longer the named thing 'gem' - still the same personality but more spontaneous in that I don't have to do what I do per-se, but I just know what I'm doing. How could I say? I am being knowing?

Yes I understand this too. My last shift really kicked in the balance in me and ability to stay in this mode. My mind has settled you could say. Something that has taken probably around thirty years of constant dedication to do so..
Quote:
Things work out better not so much because I do it better, but because I'm more consciously aware of what arises to my mind, more intricately aware of what I'm doing. I lost a lot of attachment to all of that because I know the arisings of the mind aren't really me, and nothing in the experience can affect my true nature.

Yes.
Nothing in the experience can affect my true nature.
I am with you.
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“God’s one and only voice are Silence.” ~ Herman Melville

Man has learned how to challenge both Nature and art to become the incitements to vice! His very cups he has delighted to engrave with libidinous subjects, and he takes pleasure in drinking from vessels of obscene form! Pliny the Elder
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  #16  
Old 07-01-2018, 10:47 AM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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What happens when you reach the stage where there is no "I" existing as "That" or "Shivani" or "Gem" or anything else?

Of course, the one who types this, who self-refers and associates with ego which "I" call "Shivani" knows that it's just a puppet-like existence on this 3-D plane, the 'Self' or that which is not referenced as "Shivani" has experienced 'That/Brahman/God/Absolute/Source/Whatever 'name' fits', but "I" (as "Shivani" or otherwise) cannot say "I am That"...I can't even say "I have felt/experienced/become That" because there's no "I" after the fact...no distinction remains...no sense of 'self', differentiated, undifferentiated or otherwise remains...there's just...for lack of a better word 'Light'.

That's why I say "I am ME"...what else can be spoken? can one hand clap? can I show my womb-face? Of course, I can also be honest and say "I don't know who I am" and that would be the ultimate reply to the question, would it not?

It's not that I don't know, more like who I am cannot be known...and thus, for somebody to say "I am That" means they must have some kind of weird thinking another would know what 'That' actually is for reference, in much the same way they have referenced the Self with it...and I guess "I AM" just makes more sense without the predicate...or we can lose the "I" totally and there's just "AM/IS"...or we could just go "screw language" and have one hell of a transcendental experience and laugh at those who seem to take everything literally. lol
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  #17  
Old 08-01-2018, 01:28 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by naturesflow
Ok I understand now.













Well it was a long time ago now in the depth of my own conditioning, but ultimately things like this. I am worthy and respected by all those in my world or I am in trust of my life and process, I accept myself as I am. The list is endless really.

Through those years I actually shifted the old conditioned patterns by staying focused on the new affirming mindset. My body naturally went into a release and shift right through the whole sensation, energy and emotional body clearing quite often. I always knew when the fear was being released as my body would shake uncontrollably and then I knew it was out of me more complete.

How very interesting. I was unaffected by affirmation because i know the only reason I would say something like 'I love and approve of myself' was a response to my actual self hatred. In that case I already knew the truth of the situation was self hatred and 'love myself' wasn't really the case at all. I guess this was a more nuanced inquiry based on what is true of myself. I later stumbles on the EFT method of affirmation which sounded more like, 'even though I feel hatred toward myself, I accept that about myself'. Then I started to notice, other people had their own negative self impressions and they were perfectly acceptable to me... and really, I'm not different, and it is perfectly OK to have negative self impressions. Somehow through the backdoor, it being perfectly OK to feel self hatred, is in itself self love... weird huh?







Quote:
Yes I understand.





Yes I understand this too. My last shift really kicked in the balance in me and ability to stay in this mode. My mind has settled you could say. Something that has taken probably around thirty years of constant dedication to do so..


Yes.
Nothing in the experience can affect my true nature.
I am with you.
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  #18  
Old 08-01-2018, 03:12 AM
naturesflow naturesflow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
How very interesting. I was unaffected by affirmation because i know the only reason I would say something like 'I love and approve of myself' was a response to my actual self hatred. In that case I already knew the truth of the situation was self hatred and 'love myself' wasn't really the case at all. I guess this was a more nuanced inquiry based on what is true of myself. I later stumbles on the EFT method of affirmation which sounded more like, 'even though I feel hatred toward myself, I accept that about myself'. Then I started to notice, other people had their own negative self impressions and they were perfectly acceptable to me... and really, I'm not different, and it is perfectly OK to have negative self impressions. Somehow through the backdoor, it being perfectly OK to feel self hatred, is in itself self love... weird huh?

I like the EFT method actually. I have used it too. No I see how the bigger picture works now so it isn't weird to me..

I think the time frame of self affirming as I did, was an important walk through some deeper self sabotaging aspects of fear. Fear is tricky in that you will avoid yourself when the "fear of death" space is still locked in, so every layer is affected with regards to yourself on every level of yourself and that is pretty much the story of my life and process. So in this time frame of using affirmations I see it more as a point of not entering into the fullness of my own self hatred and self loathing, self denial, self sabotaging direct nature, because ultimately I would have run a mile from myself had I did. The weaving into that space came with a more supportive approach and it worked to Build me up (fill the love tank) first so I didn't crash to hard in the face of myself..weird huh?

In the ongoing process I had to face all of myself eventually, so there was not avoiding it all, but the process itself was more I choose the way into myself as to not avoid myself long term. I was the biggest self sabotaging strategist you could meet. Mostly to avoid facing my biggest fears and coming face to face with myself.

I can look back at all that with a smile all the same.
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“God’s one and only voice are Silence.” ~ Herman Melville

Man has learned how to challenge both Nature and art to become the incitements to vice! His very cups he has delighted to engrave with libidinous subjects, and he takes pleasure in drinking from vessels of obscene form! Pliny the Elder
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  #19  
Old 08-01-2018, 06:19 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shivani Devi
What happens when you reach the stage where there is no "I" existing as "That" or "Shivani" or "Gem" or anything else?

Of course, the one who types this, who self-refers and associates with ego which "I" call "Shivani" knows that it's just a puppet-like existence on this 3-D plane, the 'Self' or that which is not referenced as "Shivani" has experienced 'That/Brahman/God/Absolute/Source/Whatever 'name' fits', but "I" (as "Shivani" or otherwise) cannot say "I am That"...I can't even say "I have felt/experienced/become That" because there's no "I" after the fact...no distinction remains...no sense of 'self', differentiated, undifferentiated or otherwise remains...there's just...for lack of a better word 'Light'.

That's why I say "I am ME"...what else can be spoken? can one hand clap? can I show my womb-face? Of course, I can also be honest and say "I don't know who I am" and that would be the ultimate reply to the question, would it not?

It's not that I don't know, more like who I am cannot be known...and thus, for somebody to say "I am That" means they must have some kind of weird thinking another would know what 'That' actually is for reference, in much the same way they have referenced the Self with it...and I guess "I AM" just makes more sense without the predicate...or we can lose the "I" totally and there's just "AM/IS"...or we could just go "screw language" and have one hell of a transcendental experience and laugh at those who seem to take everything literally. lol

When I heard the title 'I Am That' ... it was such a perfect description of sudden realisation, I thought I should read some of it. There is a passage in the book that says:



M:
There are no steps to self-realisation. There is nothing gradual about it. It happens suddenlyand is irreversible. You rotate into a new dimension, seen from which the previous ones are mere abstractions. Just like on sunrise you see things as they are, so on self-realisation you see everything as it is. The world of illusions is left behind.
Q:
In the state of realisation do things change? They become colourful and full of meaning?
M:
The experience is quite right, but it is not the experience of reality (sadanubhav), but of harmony (satvanubhav) of the universe.
Q:
Nevertheless, there is progress.
M:
There can be progress only in the preparation (sadhana). realisation is sudden. The fruit ripens slowly, but falls suddenly and without return

Further on it says



Q:
Why should the unknown interest me? Of what use is the unknown?
M:
Of no use whatsoever. But it is worthwhile to know what keeps you within the narrow confines of the known. It is the full and correct knowledge of the known that takes you to the unknown. You cannot think of it in terms of uses and advantages; to be quite detached, beyond the reach of all self-concern, all selfish consideration, is an inescapable condition of liberation.


(Please do a wordsearch of the PDF for the broader context)




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  #20  
Old 08-01-2018, 06:34 AM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem


When I heard the title 'I Am That' ... it was such a perfect description of sudden realisation, I thought I should read some of it. There is a passage in the book that says:



M:
There are no steps to self-realisation. There is nothing gradual about it. It happens suddenlyand is irreversible. You rotate into a new dimension, seen from which the previous ones are mere abstractions. Just like on sunrise you see things as they are, so on self-realisation you see everything as it is. The world of illusions is left behind.
Q:
In the state of realisation do things change? They become colourful and full of meaning?
M:
The experience is quite right, but it is not the experience of reality (sadanubhav), but of harmony (satvanubhav) of the universe.
Q:
Nevertheless, there is progress.
M:
There can be progress only in the preparation (sadhana). realisation is sudden. The fruit ripens slowly, but falls suddenly and without return

Further on it says



Q:
Why should the unknown interest me? Of what use is the unknown?
M:
Of no use whatsoever. But it is worthwhile to know what keeps you within the narrow confines of the known. It is the full and correct knowledge of the known that takes you to the unknown. You cannot think of it in terms of uses and advantages; to be quite detached, beyond the reach of all self-concern, all selfish consideration, is an inescapable condition of liberation.


(Please do a wordsearch of the PDF for the broader context)




Thank you for that. I have saved it.

It is easy for one who doesn't believe in God or a Divine Being/Existence to come to the notion/awareness that they are God themselves because an 'external God' does not even exist apart from what they are, existing as the 'Self'.

I've had the experience of a limitless, transcendent being of perfect love, perfect light, perfect existence, perfect presence and omnipresence, that I came to the awareness and understanding that who "I" was, that is, this Soul/Spirit or what was in my heart...what was felt in the presence of this overwhelming entity consisting of pure, conscious awareness, was only just a tiny part...a minute fraction of what that was in totality. It seemed that 'Soul' and 'God' were made of the 'same stuff'...but the 'Soul' wasn't God...sort of like how the Earth isn't the whole universe...a distinction still remained and it was a very beautiful and glorious distinction, because through it I could feel all this...I could experience it...and even become immersed within it, yet "I" did not 'become' it...I cannot explain it beyond saying that what exists as 'That' still exists as 'That' apart from what I either 'am' or 'am not' and I wouldn't have it any other way.
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