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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Non Duality

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  #11  
Old 20-09-2016, 03:36 PM
Jyotir Jyotir is offline
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Hi Joe Mc,

We have limited free will as part and parcel of Nature/One Life, a dynamic interdependent multiplicity of differentiations of the One Being which is not limited.

Those limitations are based on an Ignorance which is a condition supported by the Cosmic Will (Nature), which serves the Transcendental Will for the purpose of evolution of consciousness and eventual individual realization of that Transcendental Will which originally created those Cosmic/Universal conditions.

So we are conditionally limited, ignorant individuals - yet essentially unlimited, all-knowing and One.

The involution of consciousness is what 'wills' the latter (as One) into the former (the Many); and the evolution of consciousness (including the conscious deliberate participation of individuals supported by the One) is what 'wills' the former (many) into the latter (One) - fully realized.


~ J



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  #12  
Old 20-09-2016, 04:12 PM
William 辰 William 辰 is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 172
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Within Silence
The Argument Against Free Will from Sufficient Reason

1) Take some arbitrary event, E.

2) If E had no cause sufficient to bring it about, then it wouldn’t have happened.

3) But E did happen.

4) Therefore, E had a cause sufficient to bring it about.

5) Since E is arbitrary, we may safely conclude that all events have causes sufficient to bring them about.

6) It follows that all of our actions are caused by prior events.

7) It also follows that the prior events leading to our actions were caused by other prior events, and so on…

8) Therefore, everything we do is the result of causal chains extending backward in time long before we were born.

9) Therefore, everything we do is caused by forces over which we have no control

10) If our actions are caused by forces over which we have no control, we do not act freely.

11) Therefore, we never act freely.



Free Will and Neurology
The experiments of Jose Delgado:

Showed that you can cause movements of the body by stimulating specific parts of the brain. For example, a monkey could be caused blink, move its arms, or even to get up and walk around.

It works on humans, too.
The subject experiences the movements as though they were voluntary actions. Human subjects will even come up with reasons why they were doing it, despite the fact that the action was caused by an outside electrical stimulation of the brain.

In one subject, electrical stimulation of the brain produced “head turning and slow displacement of the body to either side with a well-oriented and apparently normal sequence, as if the patient were looking for something.” This was repeated six times over two days, confirming that the stimulation was actually producing the behavior. But the subject, who did not know about the electrical stimulation, considered the activity spontaneous and offered reasons for it. When asked “What are you doing?” he would reply “I am looking for my slippers,” “I heard a noise,” “I am restless,” or “I was looking under the bed.” (PP, p. 104)



The experiments of H. H. Kornhuber:

Confirm that the characteristic brain activity responsible for bodily movements begins up to one-and-a-half seconds before the person is consciously aware of having made any decision to move. A technician watching an electoencephalograph can know that you are going to move your finger before you do.


What the experiments suggest is that free will is just an illusion borne of ignorance. We believe that we are in control of our actions because we are not aware of their true causes.

How your body works is irrelevant. It is not proof that your decisions come from your brain or any external source. Even if there is not a signal to trace beyond your brain. The only thing it proves, is how the human body works.

I'm curious, do you believe in the soul and reincarnation?
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  #13  
Old 20-09-2016, 05:37 PM
Within Silence Within Silence is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by William 辰
How your body works is irrelevant. It is not proof that your decisions come from your brain or any external source. Even if there is not a signal to trace beyond your brain. The only thing it proves, is how the human body works.

I'm curious, do you believe in the soul and reincarnation?

Ok no problem if that is what you believe.

I hold no thought of any before or after life, nor am I concerned about it. If there is one great, if not great. I have no idea what a soul is, if there is one great, if not great.

I am a Taoist at heart. Thus I hold no conception of any God/creator that is separate from creation, nor do I see myself as separate from it.
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  #14  
Old 20-09-2016, 06:00 PM
Gracey Gracey is offline
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What if free will or partial free will is the ego's way of believing it has control?
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  #15  
Old 21-09-2016, 11:27 AM
Within Silence Within Silence is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gracey
What if free will or partial free will is the ego's way of believing it has control?

Yes, belief is a function of the egoic structure, which is based in the illusion of control, controlled by desire to control. This function must be observed within oneself, by oneself, for oneself. Only you can see this process within yourself, because it is something innate not external. Its expressed externally but originates within. Hence, the necessity for meditation, which is the action of self healing, to heal oneself from its illusions.

What is shocking upon realization, is how out of control one has been in trying to control that which its never been in control of in the first place.

Thus the teachings; To gain ones life is to loose it, in order to have everything give everything up. Notice that "to lose" is to let go of control, and also to "give everything up" is also pointing to letting go of control, hence to accept, to allow, to flow with life, to drop resistance, drop repression, drop forcing, etc.

And these teachings are not speaking literally of course, but rather pointing to ones belief in who it thinks itself to be which thus perpetuates the need to control, to be right, to support the egoic structure, to uphold the identity of a separate self, which, for a time, sees itself as a drop of water which is separate from the ocean. The word ego is pointing to this state of mind. Again, this takes a fair amount of self reflection/observation to begin to see the pattern.

Simply, everything is an expression of the energy of the universe, there is no separation except for that which one believes there is. Yes we all live "seemingly" separate lives, we all have a uniqueness inherent within ourselves, but at the root of being its the same energy which thinks, speaks and moves.

One And Only You
Every single blade of grass,
And every flake of snow -
Is just a wee bit different ...
There's no two alike, you know.
From something small, like grains of sand,
To each gigantic star
All were made with THIS in mind:
To be just what they are!
How foolish then, to imitate -
How useless to pretend!
Since each of us comes from a MIND
Whose ideas never end.
There'll only be just ONE of ME
To show what I can do -
And you should likewise feel very proud,
There's only ONE of YOU.
That is where it all starts
With you, a wonderful
unlimited human being.

James T. Moore


You are unique. We are all unique. We are like musical instruments in a universal orchestra.

All energy has it own vibrational frequency including every single person on this planet.

We are frequency generators. We have the ability to send out vibrations that are in harmony with the universe. We also have the ability to send out vibrations that are not in harmony with the universe, or other human beings or other species, and this is the result of being ignorant of the fact that we're all one, or the structure of the ego who believes itself to be superior to others and thus controlled by the desire to control them through force.
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  #16  
Old 21-09-2016, 12:18 PM
Jyotir Jyotir is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,496
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gracey
What if free will or partial free will is the ego's way of believing it has control?
Hi Gracey,

Said yet another way,

Ego is a false construct of Nature, an Ignorance of Truth. The All-knowing Consciousness has deliberately plunged into this Self-oblivion as an interdependent multiplicity for the purpose of a virtual infinity of experience within Itself as Life, and realization of Self in and through that dynamic becoming.

The ego’s entire cognition is based on limitation as a condition of and within that multiplicity. What it (as the individuated being in ignorance) sees as control and the need for it, is inherently limiting, because it has no control in and of that very limitation. Therefore, that ‘control’ is really an illusion, an unconscious assent to being controlled - a slavery in effect, to similarly differentiated forces which are of that same Ignorance within the multiplicity of Nature.

Meanwhile, although there is no separation (per ego/illusion), there is differentiation (drop) - otherwise how would that individual surrender its ignorance to Truth (Ocean), to become the manifestation of dynamic Truth-consciousness in the physical (e.g., a drop becoming the Ocean)?

Getting back to topic specifically - this 'illusion' which is strongly discounted within non-dualism, is nevertheless simply another aspect of 'God' and equal to the static Oneness - it's just dynamic and differentiated. Becoming (Cosmic Will in the physical) is One with Being (Transcendental Will).

~ J
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  #17  
Old 21-09-2016, 02:34 PM
r6r6r r6r6r is offline
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Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 3,147
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Color ( * / * )--2D Slice-of-Mind

Quote:
Jyotir--Ego is a false construct of Nature, an Ignorance of Truth.

This does not ring true to me.

Humans are very much cognizant of absolute and relative truths.

( * * )-----consciousness

( * | * )---2D, Slice-of-Space

( * | * )---2D, Slice-of-Time

( * / * )---2D, Slice-of-Mind

There can exist five and only five possible regular/symmetrical polyhedral of Universe, irrespective of multiverse scenarios.

r6
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"U"niverse > Uni-v-erse > universe's > I-verse< you-verse < we-verse < them-verse
Gravitational Space ( + ) >< Dark Energy )-(
Time >66.4< --frequency ^v^v--
Mind/Intellect 12 ergo 3-fold 4-fold and 5-fold
Biological *8* --bilateral four's---
Spin <left 6 right >---Pitch, Yaw Roll{ 3 * 2 = 6 }
IS >2<--positive and negative tetrahedron
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  #18  
Old 21-09-2016, 03:56 PM
Joe Mc Joe Mc is offline
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Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 931
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jyotir


Hi Joe Mc,

We have limited free will as part and parcel of Nature/One Life, a dynamic interdependent multiplicity of differentiations of the One Being which is not limited.

Those limitations are based on an Ignorance which is a condition supported by the Cosmic Will (Nature), which serves the Transcendental Will for the purpose of evolution of consciousness and eventual individual realization of that Transcendental Will which originally created those Cosmic/Universal conditions.

So we are conditionally limited, ignorant individuals - yet essentially unlimited, all-knowing and One.

The involution of consciousness is what 'wills' the latter (as One) into the former (the Many); and the evolution of consciousness (including the conscious deliberate participation of individuals supported by the One) is what 'wills' the former (many) into the latter (One) - fully realized.


~ J




Hi Thanks for your reply Jyotir. I was thinking that perhaps free-will exists at certain levels of existence. At a relative level of existence we experience what appears to be free will but at other levels such as the absolute level notions such as free will don't exist. I also get the feeling that we move between different levels and sometimes there appears to be free will and other times it could not possibly exist ? Which begs the question what is free will ? This question of free will has also brought up confusing notions for me concerning ..what has been called evil, acts of cruelty and destruction etc...Some people believe that everything is predetermined which supposes that we have no moral choices to make, these choices are already made ?
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The Frost performs its secret ministry,Unhelped by any wind. Samuel Taylor Coleridge

And you won't find that Love comes easy but that Love is always right.

All Intellect falls prey to Love's Glory ! Rumi

He Made the Lock, He also Made the Key ! Rumi
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  #19  
Old 22-09-2016, 01:06 PM
Jyotir Jyotir is offline
Master
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,496
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Mc
Hi Thanks for your reply Jyotir. I was thinking that perhaps free-will exists at certain levels of existence. At a relative level of existence we experience what appears to be free will but at other levels such as the absolute level notions such as free will don't exist. I also get the feeling that we move between different levels and sometimes there appears to be free will and other times it could not possibly exist ? Which begs the question what is free will ? This question of free will has also brought up confusing notions for me concerning ..what has been called evil, acts of cruelty and destruction etc...Some people believe that everything is predetermined which supposes that we have no moral choices to make, these choices are already made ?

Hi Joe Mc,

Many spiritual Masters have said something to the effect that they don’t really have an ‘individual free will’ because they have achieved a realized oneness with the Divine Will, and have become fully conscious dynamic instruments of it in the physical.

Meanwhile there is obviously a limited free-will in the as-yet-ignorant unrealized being, but it turns out to be an effective slavery to ignorance by those very ignorant parts of the being (which the higher tolerates and supports for the acquisition of life-experience on the way to awakening and beyond).

So the apparent paradox is, there is ultimately freedom in being fully surrendered to the Divine Will (which is what a conscious deliberate spiritual practice leads to), while what appears to be ‘free-will’ in the ignorant lower being, is really a bondage to that Ignorance (including physical mortality) - unless or until it is transformed.

As to morality - in the evolution of consciousness, which the procession of life provides (progressively accelerated by the deliberate concentration and intensification spirituality provides) - morality does represent a higher principle than mere selfish unilateral self-interest (the more aggressive, extreme and violent versions being a good definition of ‘criminal’). It makes the mentalized human being a substantially cilivilized animal.

It is the comparative faculty of mind in human beings, which is the origin of morality and ethics (animals don’t have this, they operate on vital instinct alone or for the most part), because mind allows for a comparative rational evaluation of intentions and actions - one relative to another - not simply an animal unilateralism.

However because of an intrinsic ignorance within that relativity originating in the objective comparisons themselves, and importantly, not cognizant of the Divine Will (Truth-Consciousness/Highest most comprehensive Vision for each and all simultaneously/in the moment within the dynamic becoming of Life - morality/ethics is still inferior and ignorant, even if a step in the right direction.

Ultimately everything is created, supported and transformed by the divine, because ultimately everything is The Divine. But in the unrealized stages of Life enmeshed in ignorance (which is also a conditional aspect of the divine), there is a phase where individual free-will is a necessary function of that differentiation, eventually leading to surrendering that so-called ‘freedom’ to the Highest - which is essential to its transformation. iow, Making choices on the way to accepting, intuiting and then becoming the divine will is a necessary responsibility, an unavoidable part of a progression which eventually may lead to the conscious, deliberate acceleration of that progression as the entire life-purpose, which is what spirituality is.


~ J



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  #20  
Old 22-09-2016, 03:58 PM
Gracey Gracey is offline
Master
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 10,824
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Within Silence
Yes, belief is a function of the egoic structure, which is based in the illusion of control, controlled by desire to control. This function must be observed within oneself, by oneself, for oneself. Only you can see this process within yourself, because it is something innate not external. Its expressed externally but originates within. Hence, the necessity for meditation, which is the action of self healing, to heal oneself from its illusions.

What is shocking upon realization, is how out of control one has been in trying to control that which its never been in control of in the first place.

Thus the teachings; To gain ones life is to loose it, in order to have everything give everything up. Notice that "to lose" is to let go of control, and also to "give everything up" is also pointing to letting go of control, hence to accept, to allow, to flow with life, to drop resistance, drop repression, drop forcing, etc.

And these teachings are not speaking literally of course, but rather pointing to ones belief in who it thinks itself to be which thus perpetuates the need to control, to be right, to support the egoic structure, to uphold the identity of a separate self, which, for a time, sees itself as a drop of water which is separate from the ocean. The word ego is pointing to this state of mind. Again, this takes a fair amount of self reflection/observation to begin to see the pattern.

Simply, everything is an expression of the energy of the universe, there is no separation except for that which one believes there is. Yes we all live "seemingly" separate lives, we all have a uniqueness inherent within ourselves, but at the root of being its the same energy which thinks, speaks and moves.

One And Only You
Every single blade of grass,
And every flake of snow -
Is just a wee bit different ...
There's no two alike, you know.
From something small, like grains of sand,
To each gigantic star
All were made with THIS in mind:
To be just what they are!
How foolish then, to imitate -
How useless to pretend!
Since each of us comes from a MIND
Whose ideas never end.
There'll only be just ONE of ME
To show what I can do -
And you should likewise feel very proud,
There's only ONE of YOU.
That is where it all starts
With you, a wonderful
unlimited human being.

James T. Moore


You are unique. We are all unique. We are like musical instruments in a universal orchestra.

All energy has it own vibrational frequency including every single person on this planet.

We are frequency generators. We have the ability to send out vibrations that are in harmony with the universe. We also have the ability to send out vibrations that are not in harmony with the universe, or other human beings or other species, and this is the result of being ignorant of the fact that we're all one, or the structure of the ego who believes itself to be superior to others and thus controlled by the desire to control them through force.

My perception of oneness of living here on earth is through my "spiritual" and dream experiences. I have relearned through dreams, that time seems to be of the past, the future and present all happening at once. I like dreaming of the past cause my conscious mind learns new things. I use to not like dreaming of the future cause it terrorized my mind to see horror come to pass, but on occasion, good things too. These days dreaming of horror does not horrify me. I like telepathy of the present moment cause it reminds me that we are not separated, even if we are across the globe. I have come to realize that feeling needed is a longing for the reality of oneness when one is not in that awareness. People who have this feeling needed feel are those who search for a purpose. When you wake up to the reality of oneness, a search for purpose is no longer needed.

When I "woke up" at the age of 28, life became a constant string of synchronicity (which drove me mad for a time) and those who are in my daily life are witness to that and sometimes experience it themselves. These days I have a different awareness of synchronicity.
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