Find the cause of suffering

[sky]

Originally Posted by Rain95

My only desire is to have no desires! To be in the present moment without a "person," or thought based self telling me things need to be different than they are, telling me all is not how it should be as it is. So to be in that space, I drop all desires even the desire to be desire-less. Actually, there is no I to drop anything. It's all just a bunch of thought based mind games. Throw the whole thing out. Live without thinking and ideas. Be conflict free, within and without.

So many desires and wants in your post Rain

[Rain95]

It's amazing how conditioned we are to do something or become something or be something. Maybe the only thing making us not perfect as we are is the voice in our heads... and why do we trust this voice to tell us the truth?

Maybe Buddha, when he said no self, was referring to this voice? If no self is there, who is there to tell us we are not perfect as we are?

As it is said, there is nothing to do, only something to see, and it takes no effort at all.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Rain95

It's amazing how conditioned we are to do something or become something or be something. Maybe the only thing making us not perfect as we are is the voice in our heads... and why do we trust this voice to tell us the truth?

Maybe Buddha, when he said no self, was referring to this voice? If no self is there, who is there to tell us we are not perfect as we are?

As it is said, there is nothing to do, only something to see, and it takes no effort at all.

I have a self.
I have no self.
By means of a self I perceive self.
By means of a self I perceive not-self.
By means of not-self I perceive self.
The self of mine that knows is everlasting and will stay as it is forever.


Sabbasava Sutta (Pali Sutta-pitaka, Majjhima Nikaya 2).


If we say I have no self then who is the self that doesn't have a self?
I prefer ' Not self ' rather than no self, it makes sense to me..

[BlueSky]

Originally Posted by sky123

I have a self.
I have no self.
By means of a self I perceive self.
By means of a self I perceive not-self.
By means of not-self I perceive self.
The self of mine that knows is everlasting and will stay as it is forever.


Sabbasava Sutta (Pali Sutta-pitaka, Majjhima Nikaya 2).


If we say I have no self then who is the self that doesn't have a self?
I prefer ' Not self ' rather than no self, it makes sense to me..

From a book I am reading that stood out to me earlier:
"Consciousness is that which is luminous, knowing and reflective. Consciousness is that which makes manifest appearances, is able to apprehend them in one way or another, and in doing so is self appearing and prereflectively self aware"

[Nowayout]

I have been following this thread. hi.

I just watched a very good documentary on Awareness and going beyond thought.

It was very well done, at a point in the movie they are talking about loss. One of the first human emotions of loss is to feel grief, it's a natural part of human awareness, and comes from the enlightened mind and basic awareness. Then our mind and emotions move in and we feel all kinds of emotions that create suffering. However, grieving is a natural part of loss, for many people after the grieving has been long past we cling to our suffering. We go on suffering way past the end of our grief process, it's our inability to let go.

Reminded me of the Robin losing its eggs to the BlueJay. It moved on, I wonder if it felt any grief. Perhaps that's what makes a human different from a bird.

Anyway, take a look, thought I would share this..https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/beyond-thought/

[sky]

The parable of the second arrow is a well-known Buddhist story about dealing with suffering more skilfully. It is said the Buddha once asked a student,

‘If a person is struck by an arrow, is it painful? If the person is struck by a second arrow, is it even more painful?’

He then went on to explain,

‘In life, we can’t always control the first arrow. However, the second arrow is our reaction to the first. This second arrow is optional.’

[Nowayout]

The first arrow was created to pierce the heart.

[Rain95]

Originally Posted by sky123

This second arrow is optional.’

If you don't see or find or know about a hidden secret door, do you have an option to go through it?

"Optional" is probably a misleading word but then all words are usually misleading because what is talked about is so subtle. If it was a simple A or B choice, who would choose to make themselves suffer? Nobody would. The problem is not "seeing" or being aware that the option exists.

Like say somebody gets home from work and then they start thinking about somebody at work who yelled at them, so they start to relive the suffering they experienced earlier.... This new repeat suffering is an optional second arrow. But they came home from work upset.... are still upset.... they are stressed out knowing they have to see this person who yelled at them tomorrow at work....they think about it...consider calling in sick in the morning....maybe they have a panic attack...

There's so many layers to it.... like at work when they got yelled at.... were they selfless without ego when that happened? That would have an effect how hurt they were. Did they do anything to cause the other person to yell at them? This is related to their personality and state of being as well. Maybe they were being opinionated is some sense which resulted in it. But then at home, why let the memories of it occur again.

It's like the zen story of the woman being carried across the river. The final line of that.... I put that woman down back at the river, you carry her still.

Some people don't have the option to be free from their self caused suffering because they are not aware of, or don't know in the moment they are doing it, another option is available.

Then is it available to them if they are not aware it is? Not really. We are like a rock in the river being molded by the water or clay in someones hands. Our experiences and learning eventually lets us know more about ourselves and this new knowledge opens previously unseen secret hidden doors, then more options become available to us.

[Gem]

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[Gem]

Originally Posted by Rain95

If you don't see or find or know about a hidden secret door, do you have an option to go through it?

"Optional" is probably a misleading word but then all words are usually misleading because what is talked about is so subtle. If it was a simple A or B choice, who would choose to make themselves suffer? Nobody would. The problem is not "seeing" or being aware that the option exists.

Excellent point. Many people like to think these things are simple, but as I infer from what you say, no one wants to suffer, but everyone does. When people say to me it's a simple choice, I think to myself, if only life was that easy. In my own experience and in the experiences of literally everyone I've shared spiritual practice it is something subtle.

Like say somebody gets home from work and then they start thinking about somebody at work who yelled at them, so they start to relive the suffering they experienced earlier.... This new repeat suffering is an optional second arrow. But they came home from work upset.... are still upset.... they are stressed out knowing they have to see this person who yelled at them tomorrow at work....they think about it...consider calling in sick in the morning....maybe they have a panic attack...

There's so many layers to it.... like at work when they got yelled at.... were they selfless without ego when that happened? That would have an effect how hurt they were. Did they do anything to cause the other person to yell at them? This is related to their personality and state of being as well. Maybe they were being opinionated is some sense which resulted in it. But then at home, why let the memories of it occur again.

It's like the zen story of the woman being carried across the river. The final line of that.... I put that woman down back at the river, you carry her still.

Some people don't have the option to be free from their self caused suffering because they are not aware of, or don't know in the moment they are doing it, another option is available.

Then is it available to them if they are not aware it is? Not really. We are like a rock in the river being molded by the water or clay in someones hands. Our experiences and learning eventually lets us know more about ourselves and this new knowledge opens previously unseen secret hidden doors, then more options become available to us.

Well, I appreciate you saying something more true to life (as opposed to something true to texts) because we are actually dealing with real lived experience.