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  #21  
Old 14-02-2014, 06:48 AM
CSEe CSEe is offline
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Originally Posted by running
Cse
Your idea or the Buddhist idea of being emotionless is a religion in itself. From reading your posts what you have done in my opinion is create a religion out of it. Never met a master whom had no emotions.

On your defense being full of bliss makes emotions come and go like the wind. The real thing based on what I have seen is things don't stick. Trying or thinking being spiritual is not having emotions i would suspect would create conflict from denial.

Living care free is an easy way for emotions to not stick. Not taking things to seriously. Not being overly attached to things. And so on.

The bottom line is in the awakening of ones kundalini. Things happen naturally and unique to the individual from my experience. Emotions can poor through or not and you can't stuffer like you did before. Its impossible. And isn't that the whole point. To be happy! To not be chained down by suffering.

If one is happy one is not suffering. Everything about it being this way or that is a religion. It has to be because its based on an ideology. Again the whole point in it all is what? To be free from suffering. To be happy. Its quite an ego to think that it is based on any ideology. Buddhism is an egoic trap if the ideas of how it is to be are as important or more important than what the goal was initially meant to be. To be happy! To not be held down by suffering

Thanks for sharring your view , to me life is beyond understanding and is not limited to finding joy ...as in my current view , joy or sorrow is same , from the same source of emotions ......perhaps "wanting" to be happy is the emotions that causing suffering and joy , and in my current view Buddhism is the process freedom of the desire not the effects of the desire..............
I currently cant find any reason to agree with you that " free of suffering" is the aim of life ........I wish to debate with you further on this if you interesed ......because as I currently understanding in Buddhism , happy or sad is the same and equal emotions....
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  #22  
Old 14-02-2014, 06:59 AM
CSEe CSEe is offline
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Originally Posted by Capacity
That you can be emotionless or return to nothingness is your current view of what you believe. The condition you are in is to believe in this...so you can only learn or hear what you want to hear based on your condition. Basically you are closed minded and this is why debating has failed over and over for you.

No...I guess you are too far from understanding my current view . In my current understanding , I cannot be emotionless or return to nothingness as long as I attached to the emotions ..........so Buddhism in my current view is the natural process that will separate ME-the original nature of nothingness and MYSELF- The emotions that causes my existence .

This is never a faith or something I wish to believe ......this is my current condition / understanding with all the emotion I am in......
I think is fair to say that , we partly debated before and I indeed learned .......but in debate is does not means that we have reach to an agreement , just by debating it self is great learning source already .

Dear Sir ........one of the very common nature of debate is disc-agreement and I think is fair for me to say that I never have intention to hear something that I wish to hear ...because in debate , I would expect dis-agreement not agreement .....
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  #23  
Old 14-02-2014, 07:14 AM
CSEe CSEe is offline
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Originally Posted by wstein
Perhaps you should clarify what you mean by debate. So far your answers seem to all boil down to 'it is a process to nothingness'. While that may be true, it's just a moving target which leaves little room for debate. There is not much to debate about your assertion that Buddhism is a process, and there is even less can be said about nothingness. So unless you say something specific about the process itself what is there to debate?


In my current view , all living -human , animal, plant , micro-orgsm etc or non-living - rock , leaf , metal , pen , books etc is all in a process towards becoming nothing......this process is never being plan or cause by any factor , is just a natural reflections.......in human culture / knowledge , part of this process known as decay , rust , dead , living , rotten etc .........this process of all becoming nothingness as before polluted is to me - Buddhism .

That is what I realized from two words said to be from Siddharta's - awake and emptiness .

I realized that " awake" is like travel with a map or GPS ........by being awake , we will understand / discover even realize our emotion , reason of our emotion and as I progress further perhaps even realize my existence and the cause of my existence ......I then realized that as I journey into realization of own self ..........emptiness is within me , is my nature ..........I realized that the one I hold on to ....which I claimed as " My" ..."My car , my family , my body , my life " is resulted from the emotion that I hold on to....and I realized that ME owns nothing.....nothing is belong to ME ...but currently I still very far from "emptiness" , still full of pollutants ..........but perhaps as I progress into this path , the "rubbish" ( emotions ) that I carry will be reduced
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  #24  
Old 14-02-2014, 07:23 AM
CSEe CSEe is offline
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Dear wstein,debate perhaps is a strong words in Buddhism site .......but from my experiences , when I having " discussion" with so call " Master" , they give me no room to question them ........even there was a very-very well known " Master " ' Abbot"......told me to just to learn from him without any question just like him learning from his teacher .......

So if I use the word " debate" ...many prepared for a challenge on their views ......infact to me is never my intention to challeenge their view , is me challenging my view basing from their views....
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  #25  
Old 14-02-2014, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSEe
Thanks for sharring your view , to me life is beyond understanding and is not limited to finding joy ...as in my current view , joy or sorrow is same , from the same source of emotions ......perhaps "wanting" to be happy is the emotions that causing suffering and joy , and in my current view Buddhism is the process freedom of the desire not the effects of the desire..............
I currently cant find any reason to agree with you that " free of suffering" is the aim of life ........I wish to debate with you further on this if you interesed ......because as I currently understanding in Buddhism , happy or sad is the same and equal emotions....
What's the point in debating anything. From your religious perspective all things are the same. I could be in pain and that's equal to having a good time. If I explain how to go beyond suffering you explain how suffering doesn't matter. This is far worse than having a discussion with a hardcore Christian Fundamentalist. They can at least think outside of they're religion enough to have a conversation. I see no point in any further discussion. Its nothing personal. Just no point in it is all. You are entitled to what you wish to believe. As is everyone. Good luck!!
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  #26  
Old 14-02-2014, 10:18 PM
CSEe CSEe is offline
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Originally Posted by running
What's the point in debating anything. From your religious perspective all things are the same. I could be in pain and that's equal to having a good time. If I explain how to go beyond suffering you explain how suffering doesn't matter. This is far worse than having a discussion with a hardcore Christian Fundamentalist. They can at least think outside of they're religion enough to have a conversation. I see no point in any further discussion. Its nothing personal. Just no point in it is all. You are entitled to what you wish to believe. As is everyone. Good luck!!

Perhaps you is judging base on your own personal reason , for that you are entitled to your view ........a shoe will looks bigger if you place it on the table , and looks smaller if on the floor and even cant be seen after 100 meters from you ...the shoe is never changing it sizes , you are .........
So if we are looking on others to fit in our knowledge , we will always confused ourselves as knowledge is something we know on a particular moment .....is always subject to change .
So if you wish to accept my view is a form of religion , it will always provide reasons to fit in your view.......
To me , awaken to Buddhism , I realized that Buddhism is all about learning , discovering never finding reason to fit in or gain knowledge .........
I debate not to seek agreement , by just debating I will learn ........and learning a tiny little part of Buddhism , is just like a piece of sand that makes a building...I hope you stay and share with me ....
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  #27  
Old 15-02-2014, 12:12 AM
wstein wstein is offline
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Originally Posted by CSEe
Dear wstein,debate perhaps is a strong words in Buddhism site .......but from my experiences , when I having " discussion" with so call " Master" , they give me no room to question them ........even there was a very-very well known " Master " ' Abbot"......told me to just to learn from him without any question just like him learning from his teacher .......

So if I use the word " debate" ...many prepared for a challenge on their views ......infact to me is never my intention to challeenge their view , is me challenging my view basing from their views....
Yeah, that teaching tradition seemed purposely to be a one way street. I rarely learn much when people ask me basic questions. However I still take the time to answer if the questioner seems sincere.

Keep in mind that people can feel challenged even if you are not intending to affect them in any way. Simply causing them to focus on something they have internal doubt or conflict is often seen as a challenge even if you were only addressing your own issues.

I have not 'debated' with any Buddhists masters. I have noticed when interacting with leaders and masters from other Eastern traditions that most of those 'teachers'/masters are actually very angry below (and not very far) the surface. Questioning or challenging them brings this out very quickly. Not sure the cause, just noting it.
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  #28  
Old 15-02-2014, 12:35 AM
wstein wstein is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSEe
In my current view , all living -human , animal, plant , micro-orgsm etc or non-living - rock , leaf , metal , pen , books etc is all in a process towards becoming nothing......this process is never being plan or cause by any factor , is just a natural reflections.......in human culture / knowledge , part of this process known as decay , rust , dead , living , rotten etc .........this process of all becoming nothingness as before polluted is to me - Buddhism .
saying the same thing again … and again … reiteration is not a debate or even a discussion. It’s starting to sound like that one way street I referred to in the previous post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSEe
That is what I realized from two words said to be from Siddharta's - awake and emptiness .

I realized that " awake" is like travel with a map or GPS ........by being awake , we will understand / discover even realize our emotion , reason of our emotion and as I progress further perhaps even realize my existence and the cause of my existence ......I then realized that as I journey into realization of own self ..........emptiness is within me , is my nature ..........I realized that the one I hold on to ....which I claimed as " My" ..."My car , my family , my body , my life " is resulted from the emotion that I hold on to....and I realized that ME owns nothing.....nothing is belong to ME ...but currently I still very far from "emptiness" , still full of pollutants ..........but perhaps as I progress into this path , the "rubbish" ( emotions ) that I carry will be reduced
OK, moving on.
I don’t see any basis for being awake causing understanding. Being awake does bring clarity which can aid understanding. However, understanding is a separate thing and unnecessary to being awake.

I often find that I have acted in a most appropriate way only later to realize that I have done so. It’s an active version of ‘being’. Sometimes afterwards I come understand why, sometimes I don’t. To act from being awake is about being and expressing. I see no need for any understanding to occur in that process.

Personally, I express ‘awake and emptiness’ as ‘present and detached’. I’m not sure if that is any easier to grasp for the unawake or not. I do find the practices for being present and being detached easier to access for the yet to be awaken.

As to ‘me’, I assume you are referring to identity which many mistake to be themselves. One of the things that helps me clarify to others that there is no fixed boundary between me and not-me is to ask them where exactly they end and ‘other’ begins’. Within reason, the physical body stops at an easily recognizable point. Ones energy and electric field (aura) extends well beyond that. The effect of actions extends even further abroad and continues past your lifetime. Ones gravitational affect spreads till the end of the universe. So exactly where do you stop? Using the more tangible aspects of ‘self’ makes it much easier for the mind to get a grasp on the concepts. While the above only addresses the issue of identity being arbitrary, it often leads to the more important discovery that the very concept of me is only an arbitrary label.
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  #29  
Old 15-02-2014, 12:59 AM
CSEe CSEe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wstein
Yeah, that teaching tradition seemed purposely to be a one way street. I rarely learn much when people ask me basic questions. However I still take the time to answer if the questioner seems sincere.


In currently cant find any possible reason for any person to teach because in my current understanding , Buddhism is impossible to be taught by anyone including Siddharta himself .......to me currently ,Buddhism is about self realization...is me realizing myself , so how could it be possible for me to measure my realization on myself .. more than your realization on yourself and give me a reason to teach you?...Is impossible for me to measure , or to compare or to know that ....Buddhism to me simple impossible to be taught ...but currently in our society , there are perhaps hundreds of thousand people claiming as " Buddhism Master/ teacher" ....they gives talk , teach , accept student even declare themselves as "teacher" of Buddhism .........I just hope to learn their reason that makes them have emotion to teach others but for years I cant find even one to debate .


Keep in mind that people can feel challenged even if you are not intending to affect them in any way. Simply causing them to focus on something they have internal doubt or conflict is often seen as a challenge even if you were only addressing your own issues.

I have not 'debated' with any Buddhists masters. I have noticed when interacting with leaders and masters from other Eastern traditions that most of those 'teachers'/masters are actually very angry below (and not very far) the surface. Questioning or challenging them brings this out very quickly. Not sure the cause, just noting it.

Yes , you also notice that ? Being a human , I notice that many "Buddhism Teacher" whom always talk about compassion / love but do get angry when their views being challenged.............
But...awaken to Buddhism concept , I realized that is my suffering / emotion to make any assumption / judgement on them ......they always entitled to their path , they are always in their learning lesson to discover their emotion same as me ....no one is right or wrong , every one is discovering own emotion by own action / re-action .........so if I make judgment on their action basing on my knowledge I will always in a circle of emotion that will drag me into longer journey .........so to me Buddhism is all about ownselves ..........so is always my reason , my realization on my path thats moves me never others ...so they can get angry as their wish but I just learn and carry on my journey without livin in their life...............
That is my current understanding on Buddhism concept .
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  #30  
Old 15-02-2014, 02:06 AM
CSEe CSEe is offline
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Originally Posted by wstein
saying the same thing again … and again … reiteration is not a debate or even a discussion. It’s starting to sound like that one way street I referred to in the previous post.

Perhaps when you live in a moment at one time ...you sometimes "forget" the past ........ I do talk on my realization on that particular of time but never creates any intention to defend what I have said before .......so sorry if it sound repeating , to me is not....it just my emotion on a particular time . To me being awake and live in the moment , we change every moment in life and not livin in multiple lifes ...each moment of life is " new" so it may sound repeating to you but to me ...that is my condition on that particular moment .

OK, moving on.
I don’t see any basis for being awake causing understanding. Being awake does bring clarity which can aid understanding. However, understanding is a separate thing and unnecessary to being awake.

I often find that I have acted in a most appropriate way only later to realize that I have done so. It’s an active version of ‘being’. Sometimes afterwards I come understand why, sometimes I don’t. To act from being awake is about being and expressing. I see no need for any understanding to occur in that process.

Thanks for sharing ...as in my case "awake" makes me realize that in all my action or re-action or intention should be my total "self" .....being awake to my condition on a particular moment . For example , if I badly need money and someone give me money , by normal re-action , I will take it ........but if I "awake" and focusing on my total emotions , exploring all my emotion ...perhaps I will come to a decision that will less cause regret to me ......is common human culture to act or re-act and regrets later .....by being awake , we do choose better choices and with such choices we do experience less suffering of regrets .......
Sometimes my family members do said things very-very hurting to me .....if I act on my anger / ego / pride ...perhaps it will cause World War III but being awaken to Buddhism , I managed to realize that they are just providing a lesson to me to discover my emotions , my anger , my pride , my ego and for that whatever they said it is a great learning lesson to me ....Buddhism is beyond what I know so if I make judgement base on what I have known ..that will cause confusion to me .....I am now still full of pollutants still have special emotions for my daughter , family etc ...I still learning



Personally, I express ‘awake and emptiness’ as ‘present and detached’. I’m not sure if that is any easier to grasp for the unawake or not. I do find the practices for being present and being detached easier to access for the yet to be awaken.

As to ‘me’, I assume you are referring to identity which many mistake to be themselves. One of the things that helps me clarify to others that there is no fixed boundary between me and not-me is to ask them where exactly they end and ‘other’ begins’.Within reason, the physical body stops at an easily recognizable point. Ones energy and electric field (aura) extends well beyond that. The effect of actions extends even further abroad and continues past your lifetime. Ones gravitational affect spreads till the end of the universe. So exactly where do you stop? Using the more tangible aspects of ‘self’ makes it much easier for the mind to get a grasp on the concepts. While the above only addresses the issue of identity being arbitrary, it often leads to the more important discovery that the very concept of me is only an arbitrary label.

My current understanding is that there is never any " boundary" , is just like a dirt on a cloth ........the dirt is attaching on the cloth .
In my current view , "ME" is nothingness .....is total nothing , is universal condition for all living or non-living ...... and myself is the emotions which I claimed to be mine - my fear , desire , pride , love , greed ... this emotion is the energy that causes my existence and myself will always exist as long as myself exist . Buddhism is the natural process that will detached Myself from "Me"................so myself will stop to exist by a process leading to freedom of all emotion . So awaken to Buddhism , we will just flow into the sea not swimming against the current ..........

In my current view ,"our physical body" perhaps is never belong to us , is never related to us ...perhaps "death or birth" is the physical body own journey that is never related to ourselves......I hope to discuss more on this with you if you interested ...
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