How can one develop through meditation?

[briam]

i have found meditation reduces thoughts to a crawl it does not silence the mind as it is only a light trance, i have gone deeper but i had to slowly bring my self into a more consious level of normality sometimes you can practice and might not be the correct way, i learned at a buddhist centre after several years of practice i started noticing thing and hearing sounds i would not even notice before like the beauty of flowers there bright outstanding colours as if they were saying to me he look at me i found it awesome the sounds came from music it was like i was hearing hiden sounds tones buried in the music ive never hear before the effects started working on me after eighteen months my work collegues noticed a change in me i was much calmer in my self but it only does so much the rest is up to you

[inavalan]

Originally Posted by briam

i have found meditation reduces thoughts to a crawl it does not silence the mind as it is only a light trance, i have gone deeper but i had to slowly bring my self into a more consious level of normality sometimes you can practice and might not be the correct way, i learned at a buddhist centre after several years of practice i started noticing thing and hearing sounds i would not even notice before like the beauty of flowers there bright outstanding colours as if they were saying to me he look at me i found it awesome the sounds came from music it was like i was hearing hiden sounds tones buried in the music ive never hear before the effects started working on me after eighteen months my work collegues noticed a change in me i was much calmer in my self but it only does so much the rest is up to you

.......,,,,,,,IIII

I have more of those and other useful stuff, if you need

By the way ... why are you using spaces? They are so passé ...

[utopiandreamchild]

Originally Posted by Siemens

Spiritual guides sell us meditation as path of development, but what do you gain if you praktice meditation? How do you profit from it and which goal should one pursue when practicing meditation? Which kinds of transformation are possible if one meditates?

Meditation is not necessary for enlightenment however it's still a useful tool to practise mindfulness, peace and harmony. Amen

[Siemens]

Originally Posted by briam

i have found meditation reduces thoughts to a crawl it does not silence the mind as it is only a light trance, i have gone deeper but i had to slowly bring my self into a more consious level of normality sometimes you can practice and might not be the correct way, i learned at a buddhist centre after several years of practice i started noticing thing and hearing sounds i would not even notice before like the beauty of flowers there bright outstanding colours as if they were saying to me he look at me i found it awesome the sounds came from music it was like i was hearing hiden sounds tones buried in the music ive never hear before the effects started working on me after eighteen months my work collegues noticed a change in me i was much calmer in my self but it only does so much the rest is up to you

ok, so you too used it as a tool to increase mindfulness

[Demy]

Originally Posted by utopiandreamchild

Meditation is not necessary for enlightenment however it's still a useful tool to practise mindfulness, peace and harmony. Amen

I agree. I do not do any meditation at all. Have not for 30 years.
My "mental work" is exactly that. Within me and outside me in the different realms.
Whenever I close my eyes, work is to be done.

[Fatimasque]

Meditation is different for every person.
in the way it looks, in the way it is practiced, experienced, and how it affects us.


I don't think I'm meditating only when I am sitting in a pose, and silencing my mind. that is just one way to meditate, with the objective of silencing the mind.

but as a poet, and writer, when I am in my journals or reading poetry, I see this as also a type of meditation, because I am in flow with something I love, I've surrendered to the inspiration and the pen. the objective here is surrender or love.

prayer is also a type of meditation and its objective is to connect with divine source/love. it has its own look for each faith, whether on bended knees or other.

I don't know what type of meditation you've tried. but maybe get out of the zone that dictates what meditation is supposed to look like and do for you.
decide what it is you want first?
do you want to slow your mind, are thoughts too fast.
do you want to find god.
do you want to know yourself better,
do you want to find peace in your heart,
or feel in flow with a thing you love like music or poetry...

if we think of exercise as necessary for the body's health, then meditation is the exercise form for our psychic health. (this can be emotions, mental, or spiritual, depending on what the person aims and needs and defines).

and just like there are a million different sports, appealing differently to each person. so goes the same for meditation.
redefine your understanding of it, and you may find that you've already been meditating in ways more natural to you, but you didn't call it meditation, because you're just gardening.
or you may discover a path or way of meditation that is also personal to you only. I like to dance. sometimes I'll go rock a dance floor, and my eyes are closed like I'm the only one there, and I dance and twirl like an idiot, and I get asked what drugs I'm on, which is nothing, and I dance until my feet will swell tomorrow. but I come back to my bed emptied of all my anxiety and heaviness, I open my skin to the music and let it penetrate me, and I practice presence and flow with dance in the most unlikely of places, a bar. I look like I'm partying. I know I'm meditating with music and dance.

Hope this has insight for you.
Salam,
F

[Siemens]

Originally Posted by Fatimasque

Meditation is different for every person.
in the way it looks, in the way it is practiced, experienced, and how it affects us.


I don't think I'm meditating only when I am sitting in a pose, and silencing my mind. that is just one way to meditate, with the objective of silencing the mind.

but as a poet, and writer, when I am in my journals or reading poetry, I see this as also a type of meditation, because I am in flow with something I love, I've surrendered to the inspiration and the pen. the objective here is surrender or love.

prayer is also a type of meditation and its objective is to connect with divine source/love. it has its own look for each faith, whether on bended knees or other.

I don't know what type of meditation you've tried. but maybe get out of the zone that dictates what meditation is supposed to look like and do for you.
decide what it is you want first?
do you want to slow your mind, are thoughts too fast.
do you want to find god.
do you want to know yourself better,
do you want to find peace in your heart,
or feel in flow with a thing you love like music or poetry...

if we think of exercise as necessary for the body's health, then meditation is the exercise form for our psychic health. (this can be emotions, mental, or spiritual, depending on what the person aims and needs and defines).

and just like there are a million different sports, appealing differently to each person. so goes the same for meditation.
redefine your understanding of it, and you may find that you've already been meditating in ways more natural to you, but you didn't call it meditation, because you're just gardening.
or you may discover a path or way of meditation that is also personal to you only. I like to dance. sometimes I'll go rock a dance floor, and my eyes are closed like I'm the only one there, and I dance and twirl like an idiot, and I get asked what drugs I'm on, which is nothing, and I dance until my feet will swell tomorrow. but I come back to my bed emptied of all my anxiety and heaviness, I open my skin to the music and let it penetrate me, and I practice presence and flow with dance in the most unlikely of places, a bar. I look like I'm partying. I know I'm meditating with music and dance.

Thanks for your answer, your approach is interesting.

I also make the experience that I’m connected to something higher, my soul or the universe, when I’m in flowlike state of mental activity. I experience it for example when I write philosophical texts or when I think about philosophical or spiritual issues and receive insight. This often happens when I go for a walk or stand under the shower. So, this form of meditation is highly cognitive and I’m very familiar with it.

But what frustrates me a lot is that many talk about a kind of meditation where the thinking mind should be silenced or overcome. Some say that thoughts aren’t our true nature or aren’t expressions of your true soulish self.
Although cognitive meditative states may be valuable by themselves, I also what to experience the non-thought true-self form of meditation. I do not even necessarily need to experience it; I just want to come to know what my true nature as a soul is.

Some say, that we, on a soul level, are consciousness, but are consciousness that is neither feeling, nor perception, nor though. Since, by my understanding, consciousness can only emerge in form of feeling, perception, or thought I want to experience this non-feeling, -perception, or -thought consciousness if I really exists.

But it doesn’t work!

[Fatimasque]

Originally Posted by Siemens

Thanks for your answer, your approach is interesting.

I also make the experience that I’m connected to something higher, my soul or the universe, when I’m in flowlike state of mental activity. I experience it for example when I write philosophical texts or when I think about philosophical or spiritual issues and receive insight. This often happens when I go for a walk or stand under the shower. So, this form of meditation is highly cognitive and I’m very familiar with it.

Yes, this is definitely a form of meditation, as you are in flow and open to reception. so do not discount it. or your capacity to meditate.


[/quote]
But what frustrates me a lot is that many talk about a kind of meditation where the thinking mind should be silenced or overcome. Some say that thoughts aren’t our true nature or aren’t expressions of your true soulish self.
Although cognitive meditative states may be valuable by themselves, I also what to experience the non-thought true-self form of meditation. I do not even necessarily need to experience it; I just want to come to know what my true nature as a soul is.

Some say, that we, on a soul level, are consciousness, but are consciousness that is neither feeling, nor perception, nor though. Since, by my understanding, consciousness can only emerge in form of feeling, perception, or thought I want to experience this non-feeling, -perception, or -thought consciousness if I really exists.

But it doesn’t work![/quote]

True, we are not our thoughts or our emotions. because these things pass through us, or bud from us, but they don't make up our DNA unless we rub them into ourselves by force. (think bad form CBT lol)

achieving a quiet mind is very difficult. definitely for me anyhow.
what I learn now is instead to recognize the 'me' that is 'listening' to those thoughts, and separate that me from the one thinking them.
so I'm listening in on my own conversation.
that type of removal is one step towards the "quieter" mind.
but here's the catch...

don't think of it as the one who doesn't think, but rather the one who listens.

not thinking isn't a thing 'to do'. its a non action. but listening is.

if you have nature close by, then go for a walk, or sit by tree (they're my favorite people). observe the trees and their business for this season.
and whenever you feel your thoughts wandering off to philosophical or even reverence ... come back and re-observe, and see how much more detail of the tree or the landscape you can immerse into. these are details of all our senses, what we see, hear, smell, touch, even the taste of the air you're breathing.

I'm starting to think the meditative mind is the one who listens, not the one who is quiet.
these are different states. because you can be quiet but not listening.
and I myself am working on that type of meditation you mention.
I'll share with you what I do, and I hope it can help.
so...

now I'm practicing listening with my throat.
this is the closest I've come to staying 'mentally quiet' for as long as possible.
because even though the thinking happens in the mind, the throat chakra is highly involved and doing so much of that work actually.

so I bring my consciousness or rather my 'presence' down into my throat.
I activate listening through the ears, and I try to descend the sounds instead of being perceived by my mind, to be received by my throat.
then if I achieve that, I see if I can eliminate the ear from the process, and listen direct from the throat.

I believe the step after that is to descend the listening and make it the job of the heart. but I won't take that step yet. my throat is still learning how to listen.

but I tell you this, when I do sit inside my throat (even if for minutes) and I can listen from there.... there is a type of relief that happens in the mind that is just phenomenal. beautiful. I want to kiss it!

I'm a hyper active thinker. I can hear my own subconscious brain sometimes. cool and not cool. and I can have 5+ voices each with their own narrative at once.

when I'm listening through the throat, the energy created by these voices that lingers in the mind and keeps it on 'alert' mode, somehow just dispels and relaxes.
it's like I've allowed my mind an exhale, and it thanx me for it.
it forgets and starts talking again.... hahah. but we are getting there.

I talk to my brain and ask it to be cooperative, and remind it that we are all here together, working together, and that it is not in charge or in control, but rather an equal player to all other chakras and parts of me, for my well being.

(I was highly intellectual/philosophical and my mental faculty was my top strength and pride and priority- so now my mind thinks its the bomb and the boss of us all haha),

I'm bringing it down a couple notches as gently as I can. because when I've tried in more 'forceful' ways before, it went on overdrive and I didn't sleep for days. try telling the mafia head he's gonna lose his job soon, he goes on a killing spree. hahahahaha. but if you tell him he's got a gorgeous retirement home, and will be retained as a consultant full time... well.. much better deal.

sorry, this feels like I turned to my own journey, but I guess I'm sharing this in relation to yours. and how I've dealt with it.

I hope this helps.
Salam, love and kindness
F

[Siemens]

Originally Posted by Fatimasque

True, we are not our thoughts or our emotions. because these things pass through us, or bud from us, but they don't make up our DNA unless we rub them into ourselves by force. (think bad form CBT lol)

achieving a quiet mind is very difficult. definitely for me anyhow.
what I learn now is instead to recognize the 'me' that is 'listening' to those thoughts, and separate that me from the one thinking them.
so I'm listening in on my own conversation.
that type of removal is one step towards the "quieter" mind.
but here's the catch...

don't think of it as the one who doesn't think, but rather the one who listens.

not thinking isn't a thing 'to do'. its a non action. but listening is.

if you have nature close by, then go for a walk, or sit by tree (they're my favorite people). observe the trees and their business for this season.
and whenever you feel your thoughts wandering off to philosophical or even reverence ... come back and re-observe, and see how much more detail of the tree or the landscape you can immerse into. these are details of all our senses, what we see, hear, smell, touch, even the taste of the air you're breathing.

I'm starting to think the meditative mind is the one who listens, not the one who is quiet.
these are different states. because you can be quiet but not listening.
and I myself am working on that type of meditation you mention.
I'll share with you what I do, and I hope it can help.
so...

now I'm practicing listening with my throat.
this is the closest I've come to staying 'mentally quiet' for as long as possible.
because even though the thinking happens in the mind, the throat chakra is highly involved and doing so much of that work actually.

so I bring my consciousness or rather my 'presence' down into my throat.
I activate listening through the ears, and I try to descend the sounds instead of being perceived by my mind, to be received by my throat.
then if I achieve that, I see if I can eliminate the ear from the process, and listen direct from the throat.

I believe the step after that is to descend the listening and make it the job of the heart. but I won't take that step yet. my throat is still learning how to listen.

but I tell you this, when I do sit inside my throat (even if for minutes) and I can listen from there.... there is a type of relief that happens in the mind that is just phenomenal. beautiful. I want to kiss it!

I'm a hyper active thinker. I can hear my own subconscious brain sometimes. cool and not cool. and I can have 5+ voices each with their own narrative at once.

when I'm listening through the throat, the energy created by these voices that lingers in the mind and keeps it on 'alert' mode, somehow just dispels and relaxes.
it's like I've allowed my mind an exhale, and it thanx me for it.
it forgets and starts talking again.... hahah. but we are getting there.

I talk to my brain and ask it to be cooperative, and remind it that we are all here together, working together, and that it is not in charge or in control, but rather an equal player to all other chakras and parts of me, for my well being.

(I was highly intellectual/philosophical and my mental faculty was my top strength and pride and priority- so now my mind thinks its the bomb and the boss of us all haha),

I'm bringing it down a couple notches as gently as I can. because when I've tried in more 'forceful' ways before, it went on overdrive and I didn't sleep for days. try telling the mafia head he's gonna lose his job soon, he goes on a killing spree. hahahahaha. but if you tell him he's got a gorgeous retirement home, and will be retained as a consultant full time... well.. much better deal.

sorry, this feels like I turned to my own journey, but I guess I'm sharing this in relation to yours. and how I've dealt with it.

I hope this helps.
Salam, love and kindness
F

Thanks for your advice! I'll try it that way.

Originally Posted by Siemens

Spiritual guides sell us meditation as path of development, but what do you gain if you praktice meditation? How do you profit from it and which goal should one pursue when practicing meditation? Which kinds of transformation are possible if one meditates?

I think of meditation not so much as transformation, but first rather as transcendence. One transcends the view of oneself as the thinking egoic mind that has been constructed through the life experience to see oneself as the foundational consciousness that creates the world and created and holds that egoic model of self that it uses to view that world from a first person point of view. I suppose one might say that if done successfully it is one's view of self that is expanded and transformed, so in that sense transformation would be appropriate. Of course once one realizes this then an additional wider view of reality and self become known and that also can lead to transformation, so I suppose it is a matter of transcendence that can lead to transformation.

Quieting the thoughts is a difficulty for many, including myself. I find I am a more apt to contemplate then meditate. Fortunately, it is not really necessary to quiet the thoughts to see beyond them and to realize the waves are not the water. Then one becomes aware that there is an ocean of great depth beyond that disturbed surface.

Mindfulness is also great as it focuses the mind away from the self and onto the objective of the present moment. Mountain climbers (free climbers) will tell you that their self disappears as they climb and only the mountain and the next move occupy the mind. Of course, it is because they must focus completely as one slip could mean death. It is hard to stay focused on doing the dishes as ones life is not in the balance. Yet, through patient movement, suspension of judgment, and methodical attention, one can find oneself quieting at least some of those thoughts about past and future as one focuses awareness on the present moment, and that can be an nice restful sort of thing.

Here is a guided meditation link to an Alan Watts video that I have found helpful. It does not ask one to quiet the thoughts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPpU...CZ6Kt24qX5XTr0