A Riddle from Spirit

[eatember]

Originally Posted by Sojourner2013

Most people demonize NPD, but from my perspective the Narcissist needs the Sensitive (my term for an empath who doesn't know he/she is an empath) and the Sensitive needs the Narcissist. The couple is the perfect storm of co-dependent patterns. Until one realizes that he/she must grow by getting help, usually it is the Sensitive.

I respectfully disagree. Even with people I got along with, once I realized that even my closest friendships were working on that premise it was crushing. I can't begin to tell you the depth of how that felt. When I look at the situation I was in with empathy, I know that I was just a kid like any other kid who was dealt a bad hand and as soon as I had the ability to take responsibility for the hurtful behaviors I developed out of survival I did. But it's so hard to shake that feeling that something about you is fundamentally bad and that everyone that cares about you (even, often times, your non-sociopathic/narcissistic parent) is only doing so because caring about someone as problematic as you makes them feel good about themselves or tells them something about who they are as a person. It's very hard to shake the feeling of being used. It's as if your entire existence was to be the devil so that somebody else could be the angel in comparison. I really didn't need that. If there was no one like that in my life it would have been harder but I may have realized there was a problem faster. I would have been enabled less.

I don't know about in-general but in my experiences people with codependent tendencies who end up with narcissists and sociopaths, the former are usually the first to leave those relationships and understand there's a cycle and that they shouldn't accept that kind of treatment which is wonderful and a big step for anyone. Although I would love to and I have faith in people I have yet to have one in my life who can admit that even though they should never be compared to someone who is actually intentionally abusive, because that's untrue and unfair, they may also have negative and hurtful tendencies and shouldn't treat people that way.

[Sojourner2013]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Once you understand that the reason you find it draining is because you engage subconsciously with the energy system you can step out of it completely. That can be quite an interesting experience of its own because it's quite Spiritual. You become not the doer but the observer of both the doer (yourself) and what's being done.


I think God's version of watching a movie is putting someone with NPD and a Sensitive together in the same place, because that's always fireworks. But if you watch the forums often you can see the patterns emerging, so really we're all prone to them somewhere along the line - until you realise that you're in one and you step out of it.

Very interesting observation. I recently came across a quote that I shared with someone on SF.

"Part of your mission on earth is to master your thoughts, your vibration, your frequency so that you can move through all of life with ease." -unknown

You often hear someone say, "why do I always attract this (negative) type of person?"

It's because your frequency is complementing the other person's frequency, you just don't realize it yet.

Also, there have been studies on the psychology of Charisma (which many psychologists believe can be taught), which show that there is an energetic vibration put out intentionally by someone to magnetize a certain type of person.

If one is aware of vibrational energies, one begins to detect these subtle frequencies and can match or resist them, depending upon what you seek to learn, transcend, etc.

[Sojourner2013]

Originally Posted by eatember

I respectfully disagree. Even with people I got along with, once I realized that even my closest friendships were working on that premise it was crushing. I can't begin to tell you the depth of how that felt. When I look at the situation I was in with empathy, I know that I was just a kid like any other kid who was dealt a bad hand and as soon as I had the ability to take responsibility for the hurtful behaviors I developed out of survival I did. But it's so hard to shake that feeling that something about you is fundamentally bad and that everyone that cares about you (even, often times, your non-sociopathic/narcissistic parent) is only doing so because caring about someone as problematic as you makes them feel good about themselves or tells them something about who they are as a person. It's very hard to shake the feeling of being used. It's as if your entire existence was to be the devil so that somebody else could be the angel in comparison. I really didn't need that. If there was no one like that in my life it would have been harder but I may have realized there was a problem faster. I would have been enabled less.

I don't know about in-general but in my experiences people with codependent tendencies who end up with narcissists and sociopaths, the former are usually the first to leave those relationships and understand there's a cycle and that they shouldn't accept that kind of treatment which is wonderful and a big step for anyone. Although I would love to and I have faith in people I have yet to have one in my life who can admit that even though they should never be compared to someone who is actually intentionally abusive, because that's untrue and unfair, they may also have negative and hurtful tendencies and shouldn't treat people that way.

I'm not sure what you are referring to, regarding your post. My intention of my previous post was to clarify that there is a NATURAL balance occurring when a Narcissist and a Sensitive get drawn together.


If you look at, let's say, YouTube videos about narcissists, they tend to explain how "horrible" these type of individuals are. I disagree.


The reason why Narcissists and Sensitives come together is to balance their energies via an external source. The Narcissist is the walking wounded and the Sensitive is the natural healer (who just doesn't know it). The Narcissist, on an energetic level, is drawn to the Sensitive's healing abilities in hopes of being healed. The Sensitive is being called to awaken to their healing abilities.

But here is the missing piece. In order to make that machine work, so to speak, the Narcissist must admit he/she needs help and the Sensitive must discover their ability to heal and not RESCUE a person. Most Sensitives tend to rescue (not help) a person from their feelings by absorbing them. This is why you typically see a Narcissist attract a depressive/suicidal person.


Anyways, I also think that children that are subjected to the narcissistic/sociopathic dynamic involuntarily are the real victims because they are subconsciously prone to repeating the patterns simply by being in the same household. (Now, that said, I must add that I'm a reincarnationalist and believe that we select our parents prior to incarnation in order to learn certain lessons for growth. So, from my view, "victim" is loosely used.)

The reason why narcissism closely resembles sociopathy is because there is a window of opportunity for change with narcissism. If a person can get help within that window, there's a strong chance for a better life. However, if that window is missed, narcissism naturally evolves into sociopathy as the person ages.

Most people have no idea the courage and strength it takes for someone from such an environment and developing patterns to seek help.

[Sojourner2013]

Originally Posted by Sojourner2013

Hello All,

I am asking for input regarding a riddle I received from Spirit during meditation. It was in regards to a family member that is displaying all the symptoms of NPD and there is concern with him.

THe problem with NPD (narcissistic pers. disorder) is that the person can't bring themselves to believe they have a problem. In order to get professional help, they would have to admit there is something wrong/unhealthy about their behavior--which goes completely against the whole NPD situation. People with NPD typically will not seek help unless it is somehow court-ordered or mandated. Even then, they go through the motions because their mentality won't admit an issue.

Anyways, I asked Spirit about the situation. Sometimes Spirit gives me a riddle which I can usually figure out, but this one has me somewhat stumped. I'm asking you if you have any idea how the riddle could be answered.

Here it is: How do you make a tiger aware of its lethalness?

I appreciate any input you can offer.

I did figure out the answer to this riddle, finally at 5 am this morning. I knew it was a spiritual answer, now I just have to flesh it out how it applies to the situation. Spirit confirmed it for me by letting me know that everyone who posted a reply to my riddle provided a clue in some way, which is amazing!

How do you make a tiger aware of its lethalness?



You make a tiger aware of its lethalness by the absence of teeth.



I want to thank everyone who offered their input. Best wishes!!

the same way for us. Let the tiger out of his cage....

[eatember]

Originally Posted by Sojourner2013

I'm not sure what you are referring to, regarding your post. My intention of my previous post was to clarify that there is a NATURAL balance occurring when a Narcissist and a Sensitive get drawn together.


If you look at, let's say, YouTube videos about narcissists, they tend to explain how "horrible" these type of individuals are. I disagree.


The reason why Narcissists and Sensitives come together is to balance their energies via an external source. The Narcissist is the walking wounded and the Sensitive is the natural healer (who just doesn't know it). The Narcissist, on an energetic level, is drawn to the Sensitive's healing abilities in hopes of being healed. The Sensitive is being called to awaken to their healing abilities.

But here is the missing piece. In order to make that machine work, so to speak, the Narcissist must admit he/she needs help and the Sensitive must discover their ability to heal and not RESCUE a person. Most Sensitives tend to rescue (not help) a person from their feelings by absorbing them. This is why you typically see a Narcissist attract a depressive/suicidal person.


Anyways, I also think that children that are subjected to the narcissistic/sociopathic dynamic involuntarily are the real victims because they are subconsciously prone to repeating the patterns simply by being in the same household. (Now, that said, I must add that I'm a reincarnationalist and believe that we select our parents prior to incarnation in order to learn certain lessons for growth. So, from my view, "victim" is loosely used.)

The reason why narcissism closely resembles sociopathy is because there is a window of opportunity for change with narcissism. If a person can get help within that window, there's a strong chance for a better life. However, if that window is missed, narcissism naturally evolves into sociopathy as the person ages.

Most people have no idea the courage and strength it takes for someone from such an environment and developing patterns to seek help.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean by a natural balance. I was taking it to mean a duality. (By the definition of the word. I've noticed the word is used in New Age circles but I never looked into if it had a different meaning there. Maybe it's the same concept?) To me, real duality would mean equal strengths and equal weaknesses.

I had written out this whole other reply, but I felt like it was dancing around how I felt. I think that sometimes people have preconceived notions or biases they don't want to admit to, but if you can't own up to them they never get corrected. Any by "people" I mean me. So I'm going to be straightforward in the hopes that it airs some things out, so that they can be corrected if need be or talked about. I hope I don't come off as rude. I can understand if I do though.

I don't really see how not rescuing a person and someone admitting they're narcissistic or have sociopathic tendencies are equal. Those two things don't seem equal to me. Granted, I've never been on the other side of the tracks so I don't really know. For what it's worth, I've watched friends learn to not "save" people and it did seem very difficult. They're usually people who feel like a fresh breath of air or a calming bottomless pool, maybe they were the kind you're talking about?

Maybe I'm judging too harshly or judging something before I understand it. There could be more depth to not saving people that I can't see. From my perspective though it's a confusing thing to equate to admitting that your entire sense of self, the way you process love and self-worth, your subconscious belief systems, the way you interact with everyone including the people you love etc. are all systematic of a disorder and need to change. Even if you personally don't think people like that are horrible, it's probably not going to stop them from feeling it when they admit to having a disorder trademarked with manipulation and lack of empathy.

To me that sounds less like a ying yang, contrasting-but-equal forces situation and more like a Western darkness meets light, devil meets angel situation. Which isn't to insinuate that either of us thinks anyone is like devils, but I still think it's an apt metaphor.

What I was talking about in my last reply was based off of experiences with people who seemed similar enough to what you're describing that I thought it was the same thing. I've definitely run into ones that call themselves empaths and sensitives, so that's probably not helping the confusion. These people DO seem very much to have problems that are contrasting but equal to mine. Like th other side of a coin. A good example is ego. Sense of self and how you feel about yourself. (Again, I've seen new agers using this word and it seems like a different concept. I mean it in the psychological sense.) With sociopaths you see a lot of negativity thrown at them when they're little, which they're internalizing because they're little kids. So they put up a wall and fill it up with an ego to drown out all that shame and inadequacy underneath. It's not that they never get attention and input from outside the wall that fuels that ego and "tells them who they are" but the attention they're getting is in response to this ego mask they made. I've known so many others like me who won't even use their birth name because it doesn't live up to that subtle image they're trying to portray of themselves. There's an urge to control how people see you. How they understand you. How they react to you. Because it has to match up to what's on the inside. Sociopath ego is an inward kind of thing.

These other people though, they seem opposite. They're outward but in a contrasting-but-equal way. When they describe themselves, it's always things about themselves that other people have told them. Or traits that depend on doing or being something for others. I've heard "motherly" a lot. "Selfless" when they claim to put others before themselves. They act like they have a profound amount of shame just under the surface when people or life gives them negative feedback about what kind of person they must be.
It all seems like a sense of self problem to me, but it's like they have no wall like I did. It's all outward. I've never heard any of these people identify with core traits that can exist in a vacuum like strength or fiery-ness. Labels you give to yourself even when others can't see them.

They don't seem purposely manipulative but they do have hurtful negative attributes. Contrasting but equal negative attributes. That's what I was talking about when I wrote my other reply.

P.S. made an edit to say congrats on solving your riddle. That sure does sound like it would work. In fact you might look into the old fashioned psychology idea of ego death if you don't already know about it. It's not too far off from reality and it's more simplified than the modern equivalent. I had to go through one and I think I indeed would describe it as being de-fanged.

Originally Posted by Sojourner2013

Very interesting observation. I recently came across a quote that I shared with someone on SF.

"Part of your mission on earth is to master your thoughts, your vibration, your frequency so that you can move through all of life with ease." -unknown

You often hear someone say, "why do I always attract this (negative) type of person?"

It's because your frequency is complementing the other person's frequency, you just don't realize it yet.

Also, there have been studies on the psychology of Charisma (which many psychologists believe can be taught), which show that there is an energetic vibration put out intentionally by someone to magnetize a certain type of person.

If one is aware of vibrational energies, one begins to detect these subtle frequencies and can match or resist them, depending upon what you seek to learn, transcend, etc.

Thank you.

Actually, I knew all that, it's just that the conversation was less energetic than it might have been. Nice try but no cigar, says he with tongue in cheek.

Generally people are attracted to certain energies because it's a cry for help in many ways, and particularly with Sensitives and narcissists because both need help, as in the balancing. Your post at #33 says it all. Narcissists can sometimes feel trapped in their thinking, that they don't have control over how they feel, and narcissists like their control. If there's an energetic 'I'm superior, you're inferior' system going on then the more the narcissist will like it, because they have control - or at least the appearance of. Narcissists tend not to be able to process sarcasm or abstract or surreal thoughts, they're not really Monty Python fans. Some also don't like intellectual discussions either but will reinforce their superior knowledge by tell you that they know best and don't you forget it.

More generally the same principles apply for most people. In quantum theory energies tend to 'jump' to levels rather than have a gradual scale and the same thing happens with people. When people say someone is on their level it has substance rather than being just a term. Sometimes like attracts like but sometimes that's boring and doen't make for interesting discussions, other times opposites attract and from there an energy system builds up.

I'm an energy person anyway and I usually do OK at sensing the energies of others. The good news is though that the human body is an energy antenna that transmits and receives energies, so you can be a little more mindful of what you transmit and make it work for you. I used to be a security guard and thinking nice thoughts at a person always seemed to have subtle effects. You can also change the energies to suit yourself and this is useful when it comes to narcissists, because they literally lose control and it either makes them very cranky or they go into full superiority mode. So yes, Charisma can be taught.

I don't bother resisting energies any more, because what you resist persists. Again it's an energy system and if you think about it, if you're resisting the energy is not towards a resolution but towards what you're resisting, and so perpetuating it. If I don't want the energies I just envision being a stone in a stream and let the energies flow past. Having a big nose to cut through the stream and large ears as diffusers also help.

Originally Posted by Sojourner2013

Most people have no idea the courage and strength it takes for someone from such an environment and developing patterns to seek help.

I'm a sensitive and I have experience form the perspective of being on the receiving end.

[eatember]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Thank you.

Actually, I knew all that, it's just that the conversation was less energetic than it might have been. Nice try but no cigar, says he with tongue in cheek.

Generally people are attracted to certain energies because it's a cry for help in many ways, and particularly with Sensitives and narcissists because both need help, as in the balancing. Your post at #33 says it all. Narcissists can sometimes feel trapped in their thinking, that they don't have control over how they feel, and narcissists like their control. If there's an energetic 'I'm superior, you're inferior' system going on then the more the narcissist will like it, because they have control - or at least the appearance of. Narcissists tend not to be able to process sarcasm or abstract or surreal thoughts, they're not really Monty Python fans. Some also don't like intellectual discussions either but will reinforce their superior knowledge by tell you that they know best and don't you forget it.

More generally the same principles apply for most people. In quantum theory energies tend to 'jump' to levels rather than have a gradual scale and the same thing happens with people. When people say someone is on their level it has substance rather than being just a term. Sometimes like attracts like but sometimes that's boring and doen't make for interesting discussions, other times opposites attract and from there an energy system builds up.

I'm an energy person anyway and I usually do OK at sensing the energies of others. The good news is though that the human body is an energy antenna that transmits and receives energies, so you can be a little more mindful of what you transmit and make it work for you. I used to be a security guard and thinking nice thoughts at a person always seemed to have subtle effects. You can also change the energies to suit yourself and this is useful when it comes to narcissists, because they literally lose control and it either makes them very cranky or they go into full superiority mode. So yes, Charisma can be taught.

I don't bother resisting energies any more, because what you resist persists. Again it's an energy system and if you think about it, if you're resisting the energy is not towards a resolution but towards what you're resisting, and so perpetuating it. If I don't want the energies I just envision being a stone in a stream and let the energies flow past. Having a big nose to cut through the stream and large ears as diffusers also help.

I'm a sensitive and I have experience form the perspective of being on the receiving end.

If you don't mind, what do you mean by energy systems? Is it something I could reliably google or read about?

[Sojourner2013]

Originally Posted by eatember

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean by a natural balance. I was taking it to mean a duality. (By the definition of the word. I've noticed the word is used in New Age circles but I never looked into if it had a different meaning there. Maybe it's the same concept?) To me, real duality would mean equal strengths and equal weaknesses.

I had written out this whole other reply, but I felt like it was dancing around how I felt. I think that sometimes people have preconceived notions or biases they don't want to admit to, but if you can't own up to them they never get corrected. Any by "people" I mean me. So I'm going to be straightforward in the hopes that it airs some things out, so that they can be corrected if need be or talked about. I hope I don't come off as rude. I can understand if I do though.

I don't really see how not rescuing a person and someone admitting they're narcissistic or have sociopathic tendencies are equal. Those two things don't seem equal to me. Granted, I've never been on the other side of the tracks so I don't really know. For what it's worth, I've watched friends learn to not "save" people and it did seem very difficult. They're usually people who feel like a fresh breath of air or a calming bottomless pool, maybe they were the kind you're talking about?

Maybe I'm judging too harshly or judging something before I understand it. There could be more depth to not saving people that I can't see. From my perspective though it's a confusing thing to equate to admitting that your entire sense of self, the way you process love and self-worth, your subconscious belief systems, the way you interact with everyone including the people you love etc. are all systematic of a disorder and need to change. Even if you personally don't think people like that are horrible, it's probably not going to stop them from feeling it when they admit to having a disorder trademarked with manipulation and lack of empathy.

To me that sounds less like a ying yang, contrasting-but-equal forces situation and more like a Western darkness meets light, devil meets angel situation. Which isn't to insinuate that either of us thinks anyone is like devils, but I still think it's an apt metaphor.

What I was talking about in my last reply was based off of experiences with people who seemed similar enough to what you're describing that I thought it was the same thing. I've definitely run into ones that call themselves empaths and sensitives, so that's probably not helping the confusion. These people DO seem very much to have problems that are contrasting but equal to mine. Like th other side of a coin. A good example is ego. Sense of self and how you feel about yourself. (Again, I've seen new agers using this word and it seems like a different concept. I mean it in the psychological sense.) With sociopaths you see a lot of negativity thrown at them when they're little, which they're internalizing because they're little kids. So they put up a wall and fill it up with an ego to drown out all that shame and inadequacy underneath. It's not that they never get attention and input from outside the wall that fuels that ego and "tells them who they are" but the attention they're getting is in response to this ego mask they made. I've known so many others like me who won't even use their birth name because it doesn't live up to that subtle image they're trying to portray of themselves. There's an urge to control how people see you. How they understand you. How they react to you. Because it has to match up to what's on the inside. Sociopath ego is an inward kind of thing.

These other people though, they seem opposite. They're outward but in a contrasting-but-equal way. When they describe themselves, it's always things about themselves that other people have told them. Or traits that depend on doing or being something for others. I've heard "motherly" a lot. "Selfless" when they claim to put others before themselves. They act like they have a profound amount of shame just under the surface when people or life gives them negative feedback about what kind of person they must be.
It all seems like a sense of self problem to me, but it's like they have no wall like I did. It's all outward. I've never heard any of these people identify with core traits that can exist in a vacuum like strength or fiery-ness. Labels you give to yourself even when others can't see them.

They don't seem purposely manipulative but they do have hurtful negative attributes. Contrasting but equal negative attributes. That's what I was talking about when I wrote my other reply.

P.S. made an edit to say congrats on solving your riddle. That sure does sound like it would work. In fact you might look into the old fashioned psychology idea of ego death if you don't already know about it. It's not too far off from reality and it's more simplified than the modern equivalent. I had to go through one and I think I indeed would describe it as being de-fanged.

Hi eatember,
I'm going to start a different thread about this be cause it's such a complex topic and my riddle has been solved.

[Sojourner2013]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Thank you.

Actually, I knew all that, it's just that the conversation was less energetic than it might have been. Nice try but no cigar, says he with tongue in cheek.

Generally people are attracted to certain energies because it's a cry for help in many ways, and particularly with Sensitives and narcissists because both need help, as in the balancing. Your post at #33 says it all. Narcissists can sometimes feel trapped in their thinking, that they don't have control over how they feel, and narcissists like their control. If there's an energetic 'I'm superior, you're inferior' system going on then the more the narcissist will like it, because they have control - or at least the appearance of. Narcissists tend not to be able to process sarcasm or abstract or surreal thoughts, they're not really Monty Python fans. Some also don't like intellectual discussions either but will reinforce their superior knowledge by tell you that they know best and don't you forget it.

More generally the same principles apply for most people. In quantum theory energies tend to 'jump' to levels rather than have a gradual scale and the same thing happens with people. When people say someone is on their level it has substance rather than being just a term. Sometimes like attracts like but sometimes that's boring and doen't make for interesting discussions, other times opposites attract and from there an energy system builds up.

I'm an energy person anyway and I usually do OK at sensing the energies of others. The good news is though that the human body is an energy antenna that transmits and receives energies, so you can be a little more mindful of what you transmit and make it work for you. I used to be a security guard and thinking nice thoughts at a person always seemed to have subtle effects. You can also change the energies to suit yourself and this is useful when it comes to narcissists, because they literally lose control and it either makes them very cranky or they go into full superiority mode. So yes, Charisma can be taught.

I don't bother resisting energies any more, because what you resist persists. Again it's an energy system and if you think about it, if you're resisting the energy is not towards a resolution but towards what you're resisting, and so perpetuating it. If I don't want the energies I just envision being a stone in a stream and let the energies flow past. Having a big nose to cut through the stream and large ears as diffusers also help.

I'm a sensitive and I have experience form the perspective of being on the receiving end.

You had me at "they're not really Monty Python fans" ..."it's just a flesh wound..."